How Jordan Fleming Took One Idea To $10 Million In Annual Recurring Revenue

How Jordan Fleming Took One Idea To $10 Million In Annual Recurring Revenue | Disruptors Podcast

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Jordan Fleming: The people who end up building things, I think all have one thing in common and that is when the shot is there, they take it and they don't hesitate and that is not everybody. You meet people who have this great ideas but you see the hesitancy in the risk And I will always say to them, look. From what I'm hearing, you don't sound like you're willing to have take the risk. And if you're not willing to to take the risk, you will never accomplish this. Listening to customers and taking the the shot are the two things that I think are absolutely critical.

Steve Trang: Welcome, Welcome, and thank you for joining us for today's episode of disruptors where millionaires are made. Today, we have Jordan Fleming with smartphone and Jordan Flynn from Poland to talk about how he took one idea to $10,000,000 in annual recurring revenue. Now, guys, I am on a mission to create a 100 millionaires. The information on the show alone is enough to help help you become a millionaire in the next five to seven years. If you'll take consistent action, you will become one.

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So I'm super excited to have you here. I think we've been kinda talking about this for a while, but I've been using your product for about seven years. Right? So I wanna find out, you know, how this journey began. So talk to me about what was your life like before you decided to get into this software business.

Jordan: That now that's so the change from software, like, from what I was doing before to software was probably the biggest change in my life. Yeah. Because before that so I've never worked for. I I okay. I worked in high school.

I did I always had a job. High school and all that. But once I became an adult, I've I didn't work for anyone. I've always had my own business. And I started out as a marketing con like, I I built a consultancy that kinda did sales and marketing Mhmm.

Change management. I had absolutely zero credibility or, like, experience, but I made it work. And so I guess I was good because it kept I kept getting more clients and and doing it better. But a consultancy is feast or famine so much of the time. Right?

It's it's it's it's time. It's you're selling your time. And and and scaling a business like that where you're selling your time, that's really hard because you you then have this, like first of all, everybody wants your time. Mhmm. They don't want the people I hire.

They want my time. Well, there's only so much of that I have.

Steve: Mhmm.

Jordan: And, you know, and also just when you're selling time, you're always limited. You're always limited. And then about eight years ago ish, I had been working on a new project, and, I was building a system, call center for someone, using Podio Mhmm. Which, you must have been using at the time. Yes.

And, and I was trying to integrate and find a way of of integrating a call center software with Podio, and it just just wasn't working. And at the same time, I met my cofounders, and, and we they were very technical, and I had this sort of sales and marketing. We should do something together. And I said, I got this idea for

Steve: Oh, before you do before you talk about the idea, why what was the problem, like, that you were trying to solve? Like, what talk to me about, like, the frustrations you were experiencing.

Jordan: Well, the so it goes to the core of what smartphone is, actually. Mhmm. In the sense of smartphone's real purpose is to make the CRMs we connect to fly. Mhmm. Because when you connect your phone system with your your data, your people

Steve: Right.

Jordan: Build your leads and everything seamless Mhmm. That's when power happens from a sales point of view. That was the problem I was trying to solve. I was trying to I was trying to integrate a call center, like, phone with this call center structure I'd built Mhmm. And it just wasn't working.

And So you

Steve: built out a Podio CRM for them. So they hire you as a consultant. You came in, and you built out a system built off of Podio. So they they weren't using Podio yet, or they were and you fixed it for them.

Jordan: No. They weren't using Podio yet. We but their specific needs, Podio is perfect for.

Steve: Yeah.

Jordan: So we we built in Podio.

Steve: So we built it out. And but they were doing, like, massive call volume. What was

Jordan: they were do they weren't doing massive call volume, but what they were doing is a blended inbound, outbound. Mhmm. And they really needed on that inbound to see the details of the history and the company information. And that's where the structure I built in Podio with all the information and all the all the products they were selling and everything, it worked beautifully if you could get the phone element to work quick enough and seamlessly enough.

Steve: Mhmm.

Jordan: And, you know, so we we solved the that one part. But the second part of the problem, which was connecting real time the phone Mhmm.

Steve: I

Jordan: couldn't solve. I I was I tried to solve with Aircall, which was new at the time Mhmm. And webhooks, and I just couldn't solve it. And and that's what made me go be like, you know, I got this idea. Mhmm.

And, and we and and, you know, and literally three months later, we launched we soft launched it.

Steve: Again, with no software experience?

Jordan: They had software experience.

Steve: Software experience.

Jordan: Well, they had programming experience. They never had a product experience. None of us have had had ever had a SaaS product.

Steve: Mhmm.

Jordan: But they were technical. They were coding, but none of us had had had had a company like a a software company.

Steve: And at this point, you weren't really working with real estate clients yet?

Jordan: I was working with some. Yeah. Because with Podio at the time, it was taking off with real estate, and so there were people I mean, Investorfuse had just come out, you know, and, I guess Joe Joe McCall and, and, I can't remember Dan Schwartz, I think his name was. And then, John Whitfield, they they brought out InvestorFuse, which was the first kind of replicable Podio system. Mhmm.

And so that that became a a glut of people interested. And so then for those of us who were working in Podio, you just got more and more leads of people going, hey. Can you help me build this, or can you help me customize this?

Steve: Got it. It's funny you mentioned John Woodfield because I'm actually working him right now on the CareCRM to get our system. And I I didn't know he's been around for that long.

Jordan: Oh, yeah. John and I start like, John and I, we we only met each other when we when we really when we, when we integrated smartphone with Investorfuse. Got it. And and as in and as with Carrot as well. But John and I had been around and known each other about each other for years because of this.

Steve: Got it. Okay. So you go there and you set out, here's a problem we're gonna solve. It's, we're going to make it easier for the contact information to show up when the call comes in. Okay.

How hard was that problem to solve?

Jordan: You know, actually, it wasn't that hard. It it it wasn't that hard. The like, the the there's two challenges. You know, when you're building a phone system Mhmm. There's a lot of challenges in a phone system.

Yeah. Right? It's real it's real time telecoms. Mhmm. So you have to there can't be latency.

There can't be like, it has got to be lightning quick. Mhmm. There's compliance and tele like, telecoms compliance. So there's a lot of challenge on the phone side.

Steve: Mhmm.

Jordan: And then what we did, though, because we knew Podio so well, we figured out like, we, you know, we built it in a way, and we built it just for Podio. When it started out, smartphone was called smartphone the only phone system built for Podio. Like, that's what it was. It that's what it said. Like, it was the it was the most accurate sales tag ever.

That's exactly what it was built. But because of that, you know, we did things like, with Smart Dialer, which is our our power dialer. Right? You know, we did something that nobody else could do if they were using one of our competitor products Mhmm. Which was you could you you're already connected your Podio, so you could just go to any app in Podio, grab a whatever section Podio view you want of leads and bring it in and start dialing it within seconds Mhmm.

And having all those calls logged automatically against those in Podio. Right. Any app you could choose. Nobody else could do that. Mhmm.

And and and that was the thing we kind of we we found, which was when you really build integration, not just Zapier, not just like, oh, I can connect this with this and kinda that. But when you really build your product so that it integrates completely Mhmm. That's where the magic is. Yeah. And that's why we only integrate with, I think, 11 systems right now.

Mhmm. We don't integrate with thousands via Zapier.

Steve: Did you figure that out, or was that, like, something over time?

Jordan: It was an emerging it's, like, so much is luck. Mhmm. Like like like, so much is it unfurls over time. Right? I'd love to say there was a master plan from the very beginning of all this.

No. It we it

Steve: evolved. Well, I asked this question, and, you know, like, this this episode might come across as selfish for a lot of people as we're talking about this stuff, because we're gonna be talking about my stuff too, is that when I rolled out my AI tool, right, like, Stefan Bennett's like, oh, you gotta talk to Jordan. I was like, okay. I mean, I'd love to talk to Jordan. I've never met him, but, you know, again, client for a long, long time.

I would like to meet him. You were able to get me set up in a matter of weeks. And, really, it it shouldn't have been weeks. It was it was only weeks because you guys had other initiatives. Right?

Once Avideo actually looked at it, it was a matter of hours. So, like, you said, hey. You, Avideo, go meet, and then we'll, knock this out. And to this date, right, I started this project in March 2025. It is now the August.

Five months. You got me set up in a matter of weeks. You're still the only one that integrates with us perfectly. Still. It's crazy.

Jordan: That's crazy.

Steve: No one else interact, integrates with us directly. Everyone else has got resistance. You know, there's a company. I'll just say it. Right?

Boulder three sixty. They just suck. They hate their customers. Right? So, like, they do everything they can to handicap the in the the, integration, whereas you went out of your way.

You didn't ask me for any favors. You didn't ask me to pay anything. It's like, oh, yeah. Let me just get my top developer on it. It's not even, like, one of his developers.

Let me get my top developer to look at it, and we'll get it done. So when you say, like, oh, we just integrate. That's where the magic happens. Truly, as a as a supplier, I felt that way. Truly, for my customers, it's felt that way.

And maybe it sounds, like, really obvious when we say it, but it's clearly not common sense.

Jordan: You'd like to think it would be. Yeah. I mean, like and, you know, when when you contact when Stephanie introduced us Yeah. I've known about like like, anybody in this game for a while, like, we've we've been in the real estate game for a long time. I know a new name.

I know you know, we hadn't met yet. Right. So I was very happy to meet because I was like, oh, I know Steve. Of course, I know Steve. That's great.

But also, I want to build the best product for our customers. And Sounds like a really good idea. You told me what you were trying to do, I was like, shit. Yeah. Like like, how would I not want that in to be connected?

And and, like, how would I not wanna bring that into my customer base?

Steve: Right.

Jordan: Like, that would that is such an obvious win win win. It's a win for us. It's a win for you, but it's a huge win for our customer base. So for me, it was you know? And we the the benefit of of any biz you know, in the software industry, and we we talk you know, where you have full control of everything, which we do, we can make decisions very rapidly.

And for the most part, something like this is not that technically challenging. You built the technically bit on your end. Right. All we have to do is make sure that we're connecting it so well. Mhmm.

Steve: And I

Jordan: know we're continuing to do more stuff. We wanna do more stuff with that. So to me, it was just it's absolutely no brainer. And I you know, in my view of it is, you know, where there's a customer where we have a customer opportunity to give up the best possible product Mhmm. Jump on it.

Jump on it fast.

Steve: Yeah. There's this book out there, Delivering Happiness. Maybe maybe more people should read that book. Alright. So enough bashing your competitors.

Jordan: Yeah. I'm not I I'm not I You're

Steve: not doing it. I'm doing it.

Jordan: I haven't bashed anyone.

Steve: I'm doing it for you because I got to, I got to experience it firsthand. And so, like, maybe you just set such a good precedent for me that everyone else is like, why don't they see it? Okay. So you built it out. You got the phone system.

It didn't seem that it take that long because you already built out the Podio. So when you built smartphone, like, how long were you able to integrate it for your client who was having the existing challenge?

Jordan: So that client, that was that we we integrated that, like, right away.

Steve: Mhmm.

Jordan: Now they ended up going belly up. Yeah. And that but but to be honest, we didn't build it. Like, we built it to be a product. Right.

Now we we didn't know if it would be a we didn't know if it would take off or not. Right? We didn't. But we figured we'll build it as a product and, you know, and, like, when people request custom features, we don't do custom features for people. But we'll listen to every we listen to customers.

I speak to customers still weekly. Mhmm. And we will make universal. Like, we'll go we'll put a feature in for everybody.

Steve: Right.

Jordan: And so we we viewed it as a product. We viewed it as an add on product to Podio, and we're determined to make it an add on product that anyone could use. Right. So so the the impetus that that ended up fizzling out because they ended up fizzling out. Mhmm.

But we then were left with this product. Right. And we were we were able we hit the exact right time Mhmm. Where real estate was was was booming in Podio. Mhmm.

Nobody else could do what we could do.

Steve: Right.

Jordan: And so the stars aligned.

Steve: Yeah. And I still remember, we've talked about this on the show before. The Go Giver mastermind, like, Brad's Brandon Simmons, mastermind event. And in there, you know, we had, you know, Carlos Reyes, Jamil, DeAngie Pace, more with Brent Daniels. And I think if if I remember correctly, it was Rafael Cortez, if I remember correctly, was the one that's like, hey.

Like, we're we're we're we're using this tool. It's smartphone. You guys should check it out. Right? And then I I remember he's like, oh, there's no a in it because, like, we're trying to pull up on our phone.

There's no a in there. It's smartphone without an a. And that's when I first heard about you guys, and that's when we we we incorporate it. And this, I think it was before the dialer, even came out.

Jordan: Oh, yeah. Dialer came out a year year or so later. Yeah.

Steve: So I guess the first thing I gotta say is, why is there no a in there?

Jordan: I I know. Right? I know. Honestly, that that's one of those things from a branding perspective where if you could go back in time Mhmm. Probably would've fixed it all.

But so because it was also organic Mhmm. We and we had this idea to do it and all that. I had been work I bought the domain s smrt.studio

Steve: Mhmm.

Jordan: Because I was thinking of building this, this semi product for design studios because I'd been working with a couple of them.

Steve: Mhmm.

Jordan: And and I was like, and I was like, well, smart smart. It's kinda cool. That that'll work.

Steve: Mhmm.

Jordan: And I bought that domain, and and then we we decide to make the sis the phone system. Mhmm. And so we were like, well, okay. We're playing around with names, and we're like, well, it was gonna be smart studio. Why not just smartphone?

Mhmm.

Steve: And we're

Jordan: like, yeah. Let's go with that. Alright. And we ran with it. And then and then, of course, once it gets to the there gets to a point where you're like, well, we're not changing it now.

I mean, mean, it's we're a brand that people recognize. Like, we people know who we are, but that's why. Like, it was just it was one of those things where we didn't you know, we were doing so much other stuff, and the name was sort of like, well, should we just go with that? Yeah. Let's just go with that.

I mean, that's from a branding perspective, that's probably terrible, but is and and, you know, people find us.

Steve: Yeah. They'll they'll always find you. So they talk about, like so you you you you built it out for this one customer. It didn't work out for that particular customer because of their business. What was the journey then, like, building, like you know?

So you build a a tool for one person, but, like, to get to, like, the next five, ten under it, like, what was that journey like?

Jordan: It's so funny. I I I think back to it occasionally. Like, I think back to it. And, you know, when you when we just when we first started, we didn't even have Stripe. We were using PayPal.

And I hate PayPal. But we were using PayPal, and we were using Recurly for subscription management. And we were, like, we were manually going and telling people to top up if they went negative because we had no because it was, like, three of us. And we were just, like, you know, like, there are four of us at that point, because I think we brought in some of, like, some of our our first guys.

Steve: Hey. Balance is low. Can you go

Jordan: top up? Yeah. Kind of. Like, you know, hey. Yeah.

Whereas that now everything's automated and blah blah blah, and there's, like, automatic top ups and all that. But, like, at the time, we I he'd be like, hey. You're you're you're in debt now. Like, can we pop top up, please? Like, genuinely, we're doing that.

And, but, like so the journey to the first 100 or so customers, a couple things about that. And and, again, it's it's the unique element of the ecosystem we started out with, which allowed us to grow so well. We probably grew to $33,000,000 in revenue Mhmm. Just with Podio. $34,000,000 in revenue, which is Podio.

And because inside Podio, there was an an ecosystem at the time, it was called Globiflow

Steve: Mhmm.

Jordan: Which was the automation tool built by my friend. And, Andreas. Yeah. I used to I used to beg for feature requests by taking them out for beers, in Toronto. I'd I'd go take them out for Chickaways and beers, be like, hey.

Can you do this? And the next day, it'll be done. But, so, there was this inside of Podio, you had these Podio communities Mhmm. Where everybody was in, and that gave us a reach to people, a direct connection where people could talk to me, and I could talk to them. And I you know, and there was a an ability to communicate.

Steve: You're able to meet your customers exactly where they were.

Jordan: I I could and I could talk to them, and I spent all the time. Like, Vlad, whom my two business partners are Vlad and Alex, and the three of us are the ones who still like, we're the people who are the head of smartphone. And I'm the guy who talks to people. They're not really. Mhmm.

They they do a brilliant and amazing job tactically and and and running the whole cut, like, all of that. But I'm the one who talks to people. And, most of my time aside from designing like, I I literally I wireframed and designed the whole product on a piece of paper.

Steve: Most

Jordan: of my time was just talking to people. Oh, how I mean, like, how like, what are you doing with this? How would you like this? Like, that smart dialer came out because the, Billy Alvaro Alvaro. Do you know him?

Yeah. In New York. Billy? Yeah. In New York.

So Billy, Billy was a customer of, Alex and Vlad who also own REI Evolution, which is a Podio based platform. Mhmm. He was a a good customer of theirs, and, and Billy was the one who was like, hey, man. Build smart dialer.

Steve: Yeah.

Jordan: I need a I need a power dialer.

Steve: And

Jordan: so we built that. But it was it was that we had this direct link with the customers. Mhmm. You know, we were able to I was able to and I still I speak to customers. People think, like, oh, as you grow up, you you, you know, oh, I get to distance myself.

No. No. Oh, no. I speak to customers every week. Wow.

I was on a call this morning at 05:30AM because I'm jet lagged, as you say, I flew in Berlin and we're in Pacific time. I was on a call at 05:30 in the morning with one of our long term customers. They were having a couple problems with some. They wanted to ask questions best practice.

Steve: Mhmm.

Jordan: And, and Cesar, our integration manager, got you know, organized a call, and he and I popped on together for half an hour together, and we talked through things. And I listed you know? And so I'm on calls all the time. And to me, that is absolutely critical. Yeah.

Because if I'm on calls and I'm listening to what people are are finding difficult, I can I have the influence to make it happen?

Steve: Yeah. Well, you look at one of the most successful companies of all time, Walmart. Right? Like, Sam Walton, like, he was notorious for flying around the country and just talking to customers. That's how he built Walmart.

Right? Like, we think of, like, you know, the the the commercials or the smiley face and, like, the prices dropping. He's like, no. That's not what built us. That's what's maintained it.

But he was flying around the country, going to stores, and just talking to clients customers. Simple principle simple principle.

Jordan: Oh, and it and it matters so much. I think it also matters that the people at the top talk to customers. Mhmm. Like, there's this there's this sort of arrogance that happens a lot of times where you're, you know, oh, but he's the CEO or whatever. Like, you know, it becomes this sort of thing.

Bullshit. Like, come on. Get get rid of that notion. Yeah. But also, like, it is so critical that I maintain Mhmm.

A touch with the customers. Yeah. I have to do that because it's not good enough that I go, oh, yeah. Sure. Our product manager is gonna talk to customers daily.

Yeah. Of course, you should. Absolutely. Our support team and all, you know, all in the sale, all that. Absolutely great.

Our developers still talk to customers. Great. But it's really critical that I maintain.

Steve: How do you do that with 2,500 customers?

Jordan: Well, I don't talk to them all. But but I tell you what, though. Like, my standing rule is when and I god, don't abuse this. Don't abuse this.

Steve: You talk to the manager? Yeah.

Jordan: Yeah. Well, but my stand doing rule like, if if there's a customer yeah. Every occasionally, you get people who are angry.

Steve: Mhmm.

Jordan: You you'll let someone down or something will happen. Sometimes it's nothing you have done, but they're taking it out on you. Absolutely. Happens. You can't get away from that.

And, but let so my standing thing is send on me. Mhmm. Send on me. I'll I'll I'll meet with them. I'll take responsibility.

Mhmm. I'll listen to them.

Steve: Mhmm.

Jordan: And, you know, I I may not be able to solve their problem. Like, there are times when their problem is, like, it's not solvable because it's a compliance thing. Mhmm. And I'm like, I can't do what you're wanting to do, but I will listen to them. Mhmm.

And I'll get in front of them. And I want I'm not you know, I don't hide. And and also, all all like, all the time, if I see if I see something on a Facebook group or whatever, I just say, get them get get them in touch with me. Mhmm. And, usually and even, like, the classic is you'll get someone because one of the problems is we when you provide live we we provide live support through inside our product through the chat.

Right? Live people. Yeah. And you'll occasionally get those people who are, like, all caps, you know, and, like, you know, and and really aggressive. Yeah.

And I'll step in. If I see something who's degrading or abusive, I'm in. Mhmm. Tag me in, and I'll go after the guy. But, usually, if they're really angry, I'll say, send them to me.

The moment we get on a call together, a video call together, couldn't be nicer to me. Right. Couldn't be nicer. Because, of course, it's very easy to Mhmm. You know, rage type in all caps.

But when you're face to face with someone

Steve: Pretty hard.

Jordan: It's pretty hard.

Steve: Yeah. Oh, I love that. I love I love that principle. So then was it pretty smooth then from, like, product launch to, like, it's easy? Like, what are some of, like the PayPal, obviously, is kinda funny.

But what what are some other big challenges you you you had building it up?

Jordan: I mean, we were really lucky. We were lucky. We the stars aligned.

Steve: Mhmm.

Jordan: The the real estate game was taking off in Podio. We built it. We were first to market. There there was actually a Podio plugin that happened a week or two after our launch like, a week after our launch almost. Mhmm.

But it was like a plugin to Chrome Mhmm. Where you had to configure your own Twilio. And, and we were like, oh my god. Someone else is doing it. It's the exact same time we did, but we we got first out Mhmm.

And we got the momentum. And after that, nobody could touch us in terms of Podio. Like, they just and I I talked to Jesse, Batch, Jesse Burrell. Yeah. I I talked to him, and we were talking on his podcast and about this.

He's like, I remember you. I I used you guys. Like, nobody else could touch you.

Steve: Right.

Jordan: Like, you nobody could touch you from a phone system in Podio because it's like you were there, and you you claimed that territory. And we really did for Podio. And I like to think we claimed a lot of the territory in the real estate investment community in general. We're you know, obviously, there's lots there's other options, and that's fine. But we've established a footprint.

Mhmm. The challenge is like, traction for software is traction and scalability are your challenges from a software point of view. Traction is your first challenge. How do you get to the point where you the traction is generating itself? Mhmm.

Right? Particularly where you're at a price point. If you're selling 25 thou $50,000 a year software, you can do a sales led motion that takes three months to close. Yeah. A $100 contracts.

Two $200 contracts. Fine. When you're selling a $50 a month subscription, you can't have a salesperson like, that that's not an efficient use of your time. Right?

Steve: Right.

Jordan: So how do you get that the initial problem to any software is how do I get the traction going? And the traction came from the real estate investing community. Mhmm. That's those stars aligning.

Steve: Got it.

Jordan: And then then the problem is scalability. And that is both infrastructure wise. We're a real time communication system. We you you you have to have those calls happening, you know, with thousands of people using the system every day, tens of thousands of individuals using it every day. They all have to be able to make phone calls and it be live and seamless and no no latency and anything like that.

So you've got infrastructure challenges. Mhmm. But you also have growing a business, supporting your customers, driving the product challenges. Yeah. And that like, as you as you scale, like, we're at 60 people now Mhmm.

Ish. As you scale from three people up to there, you go through these sort of stages of growth, and each of those stages of growth has come with different scalability challenges.

Steve: Were was there a time in this journey, early on where you had, like, oh, shit. Like, we screwed up or, like, this isn't gonna work. Do you have any of, like, those moments in building it up?

Jordan: I mean, there was a moment where we char shouldn't say this probably. But there oh, there no. No. Good.

Steve: I have to say it.

Jordan: Yeah. And, no. No. But there there there there was a moment, and I I can't remember exactly. It was early early on.

There was a moment where some bit of development we did triggered recharges on people's account, like and some people had were set up for, like, thousand dollar charges. And they just triggered, like, some of those. Mhmm. And, you know, and so and we when we saw it, of course, we we locked off that bit. We refund it right away, and I contacted everybody.

Steve: Yeah.

Jordan: But but those, like, those were probably, that and the I guess the first thing again, this I'm not sure I should say this, but, it completely changed at this point. But when we first started, Jesus, I remember this so well. We first started, we got, someone tried to hack us. Mhmm. Of course, someone tries to hack you.

Now we since the like, at this point now, our infrastructure is so good. Mhmm. And, like, we've done penetrative testing and all that. Like, we've locked it. Our system is so secure and so scalable now that but this is, like, month three, month two, where someone figured out that you could you could do something like record voicemails using a, like, a phone number in Mongolia or whatever it was, and it and it would rack up charges.

And we hadn't we just never conceived of this. And we were, like, we were just getting off the ground of the product, and we ran up a a bill of, like, of, like, $8,000. Like, it just and it, like, we and we were just starting out, and we had no money and, like, all this. And, and that was, like, terrifying to just and and Vlad's furiously trying to lock things off and all that real time. But, again, we learned something there.

Steve: Mhmm. Took

Jordan: a bit of a haircut. We learned something there. And then, you know, and then security became a security platform became something that was never, you know, that was focused on from that day forward.

Steve: And so thank you for sharing that story because now I have something to be scared of. And, also, like, there was something that, you know, Hormozi just had his $100,000,000 day, right, which props. Like, no one else am I aware of in the information space has had a $100,000,000 day.

Jordan: And he he crushed that. Right.

Steve: Part of that $100,000,000 launch was selling his AI tool, right, which was it was an add on. It was bonus. It wasn't 6 k for the AI tool. But it was like, hey. You know, buy my 200 books, and you get extra AI tool.

And I think in less than a day, maybe a day and a half tops, someone hacked it and downloaded it and shared it for everybody. Right? So it's just like security always has to be top of mind. If you're a real estate investor with a sales team and you're stuck babysitting reps instead of growing your business, this is for you. Right now, your reps are burning through your expensive leads like their practice numbers.

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Jordan: I will. Infrastructure and security. If you're scaling a business Yeah. A software business, the problem is people will attack you earlier than you think. Mhmm.

You think, like, oh, I'm not Microsoft. Like, who the hell is gonna go after us? People start attacking us from, like, month three. Wow. So, yeah.

And and then, like, a couple year I think it was two years ago now, we went through a really rigorous, infrastructure. Like, we we spent ton of money on a new infrastructure, like, a a new, infrastructures, that that was infinitely scalable.

Steve: Mhmm.

Jordan: It costs a ton. And at the same time, we did a deep penetration test test where we had someone come in, a company come in, and and blast us every part of our product Yeah. To try and find weaknesses. Mhmm. And there was no red flags, no critical, a couple yellows Mhmm.

That we locked off. But, like, it was a really important part of it because, like, you you you know, with if you're in software, they're gonna come after you. And the problem is and this is something you you definitely need to think of. When you're in when your when your tool has the ability, like, with your lead manager to make calls, that opens up even more weaknesses. Yeah.

Be like, I I won't I'm not gonna name names on this story because I I I'm not gonna name names on this one. And I know you know this person. So after afterwards, I'll I'll give you that. A couple years ago, we had a enormous compliance thing happen in smartphone. Mhmm.

Telecom we're an FCC regular business. And if you start making phone calls

Steve: Mhmm.

Jordan: You're gonna come into the FCC space. And that me and there's a lot that goes into being an FCC regulated company.

Steve: Mhmm.

Jordan: And, we had this issue when one of our, one of our mastermind groups that that that teaches, and that, you know, in teaches smartphone, They had a ton of system of of of people using us, and they all they triggered a massive compliance problem. Like, it was huge. Like, I was on calls with lawyers and and some of our providers, at that time, Twilio as well, like, their head legal team. Like, it was a massive deal. And I stood in front of the mastermind people.

They still don't know this to this day because I was asked to give up the names.

Steve: Mhmm.

Jordan: And that I was asked to do that, and I didn't. I I didn't. Like, that's what like, my view is, like, no. I'm not gonna do that. Now we work through it.

Steve: Right.

Jordan: And we and our compliance got even tighter and better. Mhmm. But, like, it is a real thing. And and and, you know, it's one of the things I I I watch these people, and they're like, oh, you can I can use Claude and and I can vibe code a phone system in in a day and do that? Like, yeah.

Okay. Yeah. You can. You can. And then enjoy your TCPA lawsuits.

Steve: Mhmm. Yeah.

Jordan: Enjoy it. Because you know? And and for real estate even, I found out the other day. Again, I'm not gonna name names in this, but, one of one of the, systems that people, phone systems, they're now stopping to work with real estate investors. Yeah.

Now we have we have spent seven, eight years building up compliance relationships Mhmm. With Twilio and Bandwidth and Telnyx and all these guys. And and so we were actually able to unlock. So we were able to to do so that where for a while, they were, one of the upstream providers were were refusing to certify a two p 10 d l c, for anybody using a carrot website. Because they're like, well, that's gonna be a spammer.

We managed to unblock that for them. Yeah. We managed to unblock it. And that's because we invested the time Mhmm. And the processes and to to develop and the rigorous compliance approach.

Mhmm. So when I see people who are, like, just building shit real quick and going like, see? I can yeah. Okay.

Steve: Yeah. Well and and the key is that the relationship and trust you created with them is why they were all gonna listen. So when you stuck out your neck for a friend

Jordan: And I stuck I stood in front and and they don't know this.

Steve: Mhmm.

Jordan: And and they don't know this, and and part of me always wanted to tell them. But I I just, you know, we I stood in front of them, and I did not give up any names. I was like, no. Let's focus on the solution. Yeah.

And, because I think, like, that's the you know, I'm not like, that's the way we should be. We should Absolutely. Our customers are our customers, and and it's up it's for us to to deal with the compliance.

Steve: Well, and it's it's it's gonna be even crazier. Right? Because, like, with the with AI and calling, like, this is this is gonna be nuts. And thank you for the connection with your attorney. I actually had a conversation with her, and, I had some fears, had some concerns.

And, unfortunately, she confirmed every single one of my fears, so we're gonna be very compliant.

Jordan: Well, that's why I wanted to get you in touch with them. Like, there are other people in this space that I don't really give a shit if they go around because I don't care about them, but you're a partner.

Steve: Yeah.

Jordan: So I that's why when I, you know, I I I I really you know, I want you to work with them. They're a really great firm. Yeah. And, you know, it's you compliance doesn't mean you can't do anything.

Steve: Right.

Jordan: It just means you have to have the right barriers up. And the problem is when you're you got these guys vibe coding a solution, okay. But then when your system ends up calling someone at three in the morning Mhmm. Just get ready for that $5,000 fine. Right.

Like, just get get ready for it. Mhmm.

Steve: It's gonna happen. So then we touched on this, but when or I guess before I get to that question, when did you know that this was gonna be, like, a real thing? When it's like, oh, wow. Our idea actually has legs. Yeah.

Jordan: Pretty soon.

Steve: Mhmm.

Jordan: We we were profitable super quick. Yeah. And it's so funny. Like, Vlad and Alex, my cofounders remind me all the time because I I we both had so the for context, I had a Podio consultancy at the time building Podio systems. They had a Podio consultancy at the time building Podio systems.

So when we came together to do this project, we built it, bootstrapped. We you know, they put the development time in. I put the sales and marketing time in. In fact, we we counted all the hours that they used developing it, and we put it into what we called the hole. Mhmm.

And we paid that back to them. Okay. Because they they they use the development hours to do it. But I remember, you know, like, one of the principles and and Alex and Vlad were really the drivers of it, was was that we have to pay ourselves as as the owners the as well as we can, as soon as we can. Mhmm.

Not fall into this trap of, like, you know, oh, we'll just invest everything and never make any put it you know, and and never take us. We you know, take us out. Like, we want to live our lives the best we can. But the truth is after, you know, it started to scale very quickly. And, like, you know, when you you first launch, you're, like, you're talking about, you know, a couple thousand dollars and then suddenly and I remember, like, the graph was, like, $2,000, $5,000, $12,000, $30,000, $48,000, $57,000 in the month.

And I just, like you know? And it and it kept and that's when we were like, oh, like, this is okay. $50,007 dollars. That's that's only, what, $600,000 a year. Yeah.

But that happened in in, like, April.

Steve: Right.

Jordan: Like, that that was very quick. And that's when we realized and that's actually I got to a point about then when I I sold off my Podio consultancy

Steve: Yeah.

Jordan: So that I could focus on being the CEO of smartphone. Right. Because I couldn't I couldn't I couldn't be good at both, and and and smartphones consultancy was ticking over.

Steve: Mhmm.

Jordan: You know, ticking over $405,100,000 a year, and that's it. Just kinda doing the, you know, lifestyle business. And this one was was going. Right.

Steve: And so Was it a tough decision at all?

Jordan: No. Not really. Because at that time, I was tired of the grind of a consultancy.

Steve: Mhmm.

Jordan: And that kind of, like, you know, that that that was not that tough. But, you know, it was and it was also I I recognized you could see this was going somewhere. And it's like, if but if I'm there full time, we're really gonna go somewhere.

Steve: What about the so moving into, like, the real estate real estate component, like, was that it sounds like that wasn't really a concerted effort. It was just, like, it just made sense.

Jordan: It it wasn't a target. Yeah. It wasn't like we we founded this for real estate.

Steve: Mhmm.

Jordan: It turned out that that became our biggest constituency, and now we we spent a lot of time working with real estate investors and building features for them. Mhmm. But it wasn't the target. It was just we realized that there that was that perfect confluence of events that that sector really loved us.

Steve: Yeah. If you had to estimate when you first launched, let's say six, nine months in, what would you estimate your percentage of clients were real estate investors?

Jordan: Seventy, thirty.

Steve: 70. They're real estate Real estate is 70. Right off the bat.

Jordan: Right off the bat. Yeah. Yeah. Okay. It's it's what got us to scale as quickly as it did.

There no. Don't get me. There was lots of in fact, I just posted on LinkedIn the other day because one of our our our first customers, guy named Andrew McLaughlin, he runs a truck a truck educate like a truck, driving school Mhmm. In Florida. They've been using us since month four or something.

Mhmm. Right? So it's it's not like we didn't have lots of people. People were using Podio and going, oh, wow. This would be really cool.

But the truth is the speed of scale Mhmm. Really happened because of the volume of real estate people that were were discovering Podio as a cheap and and a flexible, management tool.

Steve: Right. And then what were some of, like or I guess, like, today, what would you say is mixed as far as real estate versus non real estate?

Jordan: Oh, we're we're very heavily like, we're we're probably 85.

Steve: 85? Yeah. What are the other industries right now?

Jordan: We've got, we've actually got, kind of with solar is one. Solar is one. Home service is one. Property management is one. And we've got some professional service like accountants and and and and law firms as well.

Steve: So along the way, what would you say are some of your biggest victories? What was your biggest victory in this journey so far?

Jordan: I mean, I think, I mean, I'm not gonna put monetary ones because they're not really the big victories. Like, it's it's there's ego in seeing

Steve: For sure.

Jordan: That yeah. And that's great. I think one of the things that I'll never ever forget is last year last year, maybe a year and a half ago. So you know, everybody is familiar with all these, like, Trust Pilots and Capterra and, Gartner, Magic Quadrants and all that.

Steve: Yeah.

Jordan: Well, Trustpilot's a scam in my my y'all. Yeah. Trustpilot's a scam. Yeah. They they basically they highlight negative reviews so that they can go to companies and say, we can help you fix it.

Steve: Like Yelp?

Jordan: Yeah. It's like, I I'll I'll always hate them. Yeah. But Capterra is one which just does ratings based on what people have reviewed. Like, they they don't they they've never once tried to sell us anything.

They they just they people 50 people review you. They compile everything together, and then they put and last year and this year as well, we we we ranked very highly on a couple things. The first time we saw I saw that we were number two in, like, in dialers Mhmm. On Capterra. Yeah.

But more importantly, they come up with the the quad the graph, the quadrant, and we were the top on the right. Mhmm. And, like, RingCentral's down here and Dialpad's here and Erica. Like, these big, big companies that are way bigger than us. Seeing our logo

Steve: Mhmm.

Jordan: Up on that list, like, playing, you know, like, elbowing with the big boys kind of Yeah. That was a real that was like a that was a like, just seeing that. I I remember just I remember just sitting and looking at it. Yeah. And just being like like, the Hollywood moment of just sort of, like, seeing looking at it and going, Jesus.

Like, that's that's us Mhmm. Going toe to toe with these guys who are way bigger than us.

Steve: Yeah. That's the underdog moment winning the championship.

Jordan: Well, it's it just that that was a real you know? And and this year, again, we we we came top, we came top tier in in three different categories on them.

Steve: That's awesome. Let's talk about After Podio. Alright? Like because we are the smart we're the only phone system designed for Podio. But then we had to, like, make some adjustments to expand.

So talk to me about, like, what was that like expanding outside of Podio?

Jordan: Well, it goes back to our friend Stephanie. Mhmm. So Stephanie Alex, my cofounder, had met Stephanie at a Collective Genius event. Mhmm. And, you know, Stephanie's so good.

Like, she's so good at presenting and, like, she's so good. I love Steph. We got we've been together twice this year at events, and it's so much fun. But, what happened was Stephanie was really getting getting going with Left Main. Mhmm.

She was really like it became a thing. Yeah. And she was really going with it, and we so we got introduced. Alex and I Alex organized a call for me and her and and I to to meet, Stephanie and I. And it just became an obvious thing where she was getting going.

She was using, SMS 360 at the time, that your your favorite your favorite people. Yeah. I will say just, in their defense, I separate SMS 360 from Boulder

Steve: Okay.

Jordan: Because I know Josh at Boulder really well, and he's a great guy.

Steve: Yeah.

Jordan: But SMS 360, I I can you know, whatever. But they they were using SMS 360, and and fine. And she we were talking, and she's like, you know, it would be great. I really think it would be great if we could work together. And I said, yeah.

I think that would do too. And and we were like, this would be why not? Why shouldn't we why shouldn't we, you know, start looking and go go in in other platforms? And so Stephanie was our first integration.

Steve: Yeah. And was that seamless? Were there challenges?

Jordan: Salesforce is always a challenge. Awesome. But we're we're

Steve: also moving into Salesforce. So

Jordan: No. No. Not not as in left main as a challenge, but Salesforce, the the their ecosystem is like

Steve: pound gorilla in the CRM space.

Jordan: Yeah. Now now we are fully integrated to Salesforce, but it like, you have to go through security checks and, like, like, it is a there is it is not as easy it's not a hugely, like Mhmm. You know, easy thing.

Steve: Let me tell you before our podcast today. I was trying to figure some stuff out this morning. I wanted to bang something.

Jordan: Yeah. Well, the security reviews and all that, like Yeah. All that stuff. No. But but Stephanie made it easy.

And and and, actually, Stephanie set a precedent in many ways because Left Main is built on Salesforce, but they have their own methodology. They you know, when you buy Left Main, it's not just generic Salesforce. It's the Left Main constructed Salesforce.

Steve: And Yeah.

Jordan: And now she's got deal signals, and that's awesome. And and she's bringing in all that intelligence, and she's really built a beautiful ecosystem in there. And and the precedent she set was our goal of when we integrate with systems, we fully integrate with them. Mhmm. Because we did that with Podio, but that's because we were only building it for Podio.

Like, what the hell else are you gonna do but fully integrate? Right? Like, we're building it for this tool. Yeah. But with Stephanie, we rejigged and reconfigured part of our system and how it worked

Steve: Mhmm.

Jordan: To work with her system.

Steve: Yeah.

Jordan: And and that and what we realized was that's where the magic happens because on like, you could use other systems with her via the AppExchange, but we've built a lot of stuff so it works exactly with left main.

Steve: Got it. And that's

Jordan: the same as true as we've you know, REI Sift and Carrot and Velo and Forefront and RealFlow. And all those guys, when we bring them in, Mhmm. You know, we we redesigned for InvestorFuse. You know, InvestorFuse slash Karat is a is a is got a very specific methodology of following up leads, and we redesigned for that. REISift has a really specific way they wanna deal with Smart Dialer in their lead system.

We redesigned Smart Dialer and how it works so that it's seamless, and that's where we differ.

Steve: Yeah. Clearly. I mean, going back to the Capterra rating. Right? Like, your users will rate you highly if they have a good experience, and the best to have a good experience is to work seamlessly.

Yeah.

Jordan: Is to be and to and to and to and to make your phone system I mean, that's why I wrote the book. Right? The book is coming out in two weeks. But when you integrate your phone system fully with your CRM, you give you have all the tools to fly.

Steve: Yeah.

Jordan: But that integration is, is absolutely critical.

Steve: Yeah. Well, it's a true integration. It's not a plug and play. It's a true integration. Like, we are working together or on the same team for the client.

Jordan: I always call I I describe it as this. It's the difference between smartphone that works with something Mhmm. And smartphone that's built for something. Got it. And and so when I think of it as I think of it as smartphone for left main, smartphone for REI SIP, smartphone for RealFlow, whatever it is.

Steve: Yeah.

Jordan: It's not just it works with. Mhmm. It's built for.

Steve: Yeah. And, again, that goes back to what I was saying earlier. Like, my experience has been seamless from the beginning. Right? And, again, I say, like, five months later, you're still the only company that we're fully integrated with.

Everyone else is just pulling teeth. Like, they're like, yeah. It's there. Just go get it. It's like, you're making it really hard for me to go get it.

We actually, we're we're going into Salesforce for multiple reasons, but the biggest reason is because we have a lot of clients that are Boulder slash SMS three sixty that can't use our tool. So we're going through security, whatever, so that we can grab the data from Boulder three sixty. I know. You're perplexed. I am.

Right. So our clients have to wait, like, another four to six weeks for us to get past compliance review from today so that

Jordan: Oh, and the compliance review for Salesforce ain't fun. Yeah. I know. It's slow as shit. Right.

They're useless at this. It's a great system. Salesforce is a hugely powerful system. Yeah. Like, hugely powerful and reliable and rock solid and all that.

Oh, but absolutely. But going through that security review can be a real pain and not because you know, they find one small thing

Steve: Mhmm.

Jordan: That they want you to change, and then it takes them ages to review it again.

Steve: Yeah. It sounds a lot like, going through city and planning for development plans.

Jordan: Salesforce is, like in think of the worst local, like, you know, planning office. That's Salesforce.

Steve: Yeah. So looking forward to that. Fortunately, I'm not the one that's focused on that. That's, my my brother is is focused on that is his only focus. But, yeah, when he shares me updates, it's it's it's aggravating.

Jordan: Well, those customers can just come over from three 60 to us.

Steve: I tell them. I told every single one. Even go high level. Like, like, go high level. Again, same initial experience.

Like, no. You we will not give you

Jordan: the The high level gives you zero help on development as well. Like, we just integrate with high level. Mhmm. So you can use us in HighLevel. Yeah.

I would say, like, with Salesforce, they've got extensive documentation. Mhmm. It ain't hard. With HighLevel, they just they don't provide developers any support at all. Yeah.

And they're also I I I have a suspicion on high level. I could be wrong, but they seem to want they they're really I feel like they're trying to go down the closed ecosystem route

Steve: Mhmm.

Jordan: In a big way because, like, they yes. They've got their lead connectors for but I like, I my view of these all in one solutions and this like, I don't mean this with any disrespect to to even some of our competitors in the real estate industry that that are all in ones. Mhmm. When you've got a CRM system like, you're either this like, you can't be good at everything.

Steve: Right.

Jordan: Right? You you can the what is it? Master, master of none. Right? Jack of all trades, master of none.

Mhmm. When you've got a a system, a CRM system, and then that company, they they also build a phone system and all that. Right? You you your chances of you being really good at all of it Mhmm. Are pretty slow.

Like, you you I've seen some of these all in ones where compliance is like a a bomb waiting to happen Oh. For them. Because they just don't they don't they because they're not a phone system. They are adding in because, of course, the technology is there, and so they don't really think about all the compliance things or opportunities. And, like, for so my thing with the all in one solution, like, GHL is obviously high levels.

Clearly try they've got lead connector, which is their phone system.

Steve: Mhmm.

Jordan: And they're truly they're clearly favoring that. Whereas with Salesforce, Salesforce has its own dialer. Mhmm. It's shit. Yeah.

And they don't really they they, like and they don't stop. They don't they don't try and wall off the gate garden for everybody else. Feels like high level is trying to go on the no no just use our shit only.

Steve: Well, that's the feeling I got.

Jordan: Yeah. And and that's that and the problem is that, like, okay. Then you're okay. Like, fine. But you're giving you're not giving your customers options.

Right. You're you're closing them off and saying and and chances are you're not gonna have the best phone system out there.

Steve: Yeah. And they're really just a white label of Twilio. Right? And so but, yeah, I think there's there's element of, like, we don't wanna share, and it's not just them. We're just talking about them right now.

There's a lot of them that are like that. But, I mean, I literally had to go and, like, finagle all these different things just to get the data out of it. So, yeah, smartphone also works to go hello. Use that. There's other ways to get that information out now, today, but smartphones is easier.

Jordan: I believe.

Steve: Okay. And so then you were saying that you you wrote a book. Right? So tell me about the book.

Jordan: Yeah. The book's called Click, Call, Scale Mhmm. Real Estate Investors' Ultimate Phone System Playbook. And that's Yeah. You know, what I realized is that, like, you've got a lot of stages of your real estate investment career.

Right? Like, real estate investors, they come in all shapes and sizes. And, you know, sometimes you'll get the guys who go to one of these events, and they've drunk the Kool Aid, and they think they're gonna be a millionaire overnight because it's really easy, and then they find out, no, it's not. And and then, you know, you gotta you gotta do build a structure. And then you and you you and you got them all the way through to the the really professional organizations that have a of sales room, process and everything.

And the phone, it's it is your number one connector. Mhmm. Like, regardless of what it is. You know, a text message that pops up on someone's phone, or a call that comes to them while they're it's in their pocket, that is their number one That is your number one way to reach people. And yet there is such an inconsistency of training, of understanding of understanding what good practice, bad practice of, you know, of from texting to calling to compliance to smart, like, to to power dialing to all this bit.

And I thought, well, I've been doing this for I've been working in real estate for twelve years, like, in terms of CRMs and all that. Smartphone for eight. I have I have personally trained and worked with hundreds of real estate companies, and I know the phone ecosystem better than I'm gonna guess most people by far. And so I just I thought I'm gonna put down everything I I know, and I'm gonna walk people through, you know, and it and it doesn't just talk about it's not really it is a book for about a phone system, but it's a book about scaling a business and the things about that you need to do that's surrounding the phone system Yeah. Like good data.

The first chapter

Steve: Mhmm.

Jordan: Is all about your CRM data. Because if your CRM data is shit Mhmm. Everything else is a slog. Right. And so the book is really designed it's coming out in about two weeks.

I, you know, I I can drop you a link for this. It's coming in a couple weeks, and it really is it's designed to be a playbook for people of almost any size to dig in and understand where they can improve or build the best practice.

Steve: Got it. What are the biggest takeaways, like, you know, for someone that doesn't pick up the book? Like, what, like, what are the biggest, top three points inside the blueprint for persons listening to the show to go and execute?

Jordan: Well, you're one of them, in in many ways. You're you're in, there's a chapter, not specifically you, but you're you're you're the objection proof, the AI call scoring

Steve: Yeah.

Jordan: Is in there. So one biggest takeaway is how you, train and how your agents Mhmm. And how you maintain performance of agents. Because I think that training agents and maintaining performance of agents are two to a 100% essential parts of building a team. I don't have to tell you that.

Alright. But it's it's an area that so many people don't do well. Mhmm. They just, like and and I hate it when I see people like, oh, I just get another VA if this one's crap. Like, they they it's like almost a commodity.

Like, I'll just get another $5, like, person. So that that definitely big takeaway is is is diving into, ways of training people, but also ways of maintaining performance. Yeah. And that's a really important part. That's definitely in the book, quite a bit.

One is just the is is the idea of your data and of of the of the need. You know, bad data isn't just inefficient. Bad data can cost your reputation. Like, there's a imagine you've got you've got a completely convoluted database of people. Mhmm.

And, you know, I think I think in the book, the story is Linda. I can't remember. I I changed everybody's name. But, you know, Linda's got you got five numbers for Linda. You know, she she's in there in five leads because you've you got no consistency.

Mhmm. And four different people call her in the space of a day. Yeah. How's Linda feeling right now?

Steve: You guys don't have your stuff together.

Jordan: Yeah. Well, not only that, but Linda's likely very likely to report you. Mhmm. More than likely to report you. But you're not winning Linda.

Steve: Right.

Jordan: You're not winning Linda because Linda thinks you guys are stupid. Mhmm. Right? And and it's like those little things that people don't think about, but there's a there is a method you could use to build up and scale a business. And your phone's an absolute critical part of that, But you have to understand how to use it.

You have to under use understand how to use it to build relationships. People think about people think about cold calling Mhmm. As just a a volume game. I don't think of it like that. I like there's there is an element of volume there.

Mhmm. But cold calling is about finding opportunities and bringing him to warm.

Steve: Right.

Jordan: It's not just about hammering away.

Steve: Mhmm.

Jordan: And and so I think the book does a really good job. I mean, selfishly, I I hope it does. But I think it does a really good job of laying out fundamental principles of how you can scale your real estate business using a phone.

Steve: Got it. And then for those that are listening right now, you know, because I wanna talk to more about your journey about, like, building you know, to get to 10 is no small feat. But before we continue there, let's talk about right now 2,500 clients. Right? And we talked about, like, how you make them happy.

But, like, what are you seeing as far as trends go as far as, like, the top teams across the country? Like, what what are you seeing and how they operate versus everyone else?

Jordan: Oh, well, the best teams I mean, we've got, our one of our top customers, they've got they they attack, like, 40 of the states. Mhmm. Like, these are these are serious players. Yeah. They have hyper professional teams.

They've got really structured processes. You know, they've got teams. They review their calls. They review their performance. They they they, like, they they are they are they are a machine.

Mhmm. The best teams are the ones who are intentional about how they operate. And and that sounds obvious.

Steve: Sounds obvious.

Jordan: Like, it that should be a no brainer. It is not. There are so many people who are just, like and and particularly when it comes to calling, they just see it as calling. Mhmm. They don't understand that this is your entire method of building and and closing leads.

Steve: Well, there's this expression of it's it's just a numbers game. While there's truth to it, we can strongly impact those numbers.

Jordan: Yeah. And and it's just a numbers game is true. Mhmm. But the numbers you're talking about are probably different than the ones they think.

Steve: Yeah. So what what will be different?

Jordan: Like, so let I the example. I when I teach so if I go into a real estate investor company and say say relatively new, you know, someone's trying to trying to build a a scalable business. You'd be amazed how many people. Like, a great example. So you're you've got a real estate business and you're gonna do say you're gonna do some bandit signs, and you're gonna do some leaflets, right, to get some inbound call traffic going.

Great. How many people the the amount of people who don't measure what channel they've used, so let's say they've done 5,000 leaflets or postcards or letters, whatever. What leads they get and then what money they make and how many calls it takes and how many like, the amount of people who don't measure that. Mhmm. Because if you measure that properly and you know, well, if I send out 5,000 leaflets to 5,000 addresses and I I'm gonna I'm gonna average a 100 calls, say.

And of those 100 calls, I'm gonna get 10 of them that are actual prospects that have a need and a house to sell now. And of those, it's gonna take me an average of five or six calls to get them to the point where I've I've got them under contract. Mhmm. And it's gonna take me, two months to get the whole thing closed. Right?

Right. If I'm not measuring all of that

Steve: Mhmm.

Jordan: In those those little numbers, not the big the 5,000.

Steve: But if

Jordan: I'm not measuring each step of the way Mhmm. I can't reverse engineer and say, well, I now I now I know if I do that properly, I can say, well, I wanna now make I wanna do twice the volume next year. So what do I have to dial up, and what do I have to be prepared for?

Steve: Mhmm. Well, it depends. Find where the weak spots are.

Jordan: Well, but also, you if you under if you look at the if you look at not just the big numbers, but you look at, like, how many calls does it take? Because I'll guarantee you it takes more calls than you think. Right. And if your agents are so focused on the the top number Mhmm. The the the in the the top the the new leads and they're not doing their follow-up properly, you wonder why you're not growing as much.

Well, that's because you're leaving a huge amount of money on the table because instead of having a meticulous approach to a follow-up, which is hitting them, hitting them, hitting them to get to the point so that when they're ready, you're there.

Steve: Yeah.

Jordan: You could had probably 20% uptake if you just done that properly. Yeah. But you didn't. And that's what I mean about the the numbers are it it is a numbers game, but the numbers you need to pay attention to aren't just, you know, like, how many leads are we getting in? Mhmm.

Because if you're not following up those leads properly, it doesn't matter what you're getting in. Absolutely. You're leaving so much money on the table.

Steve: And we typically see in our industry, about on the good operators good operators, 70% of the deals come from follow-up. Right? Of course. So if you're, like, at a fifty fifty follow-up, you're leaving money on the table.

Jordan: Well, how many times have you ever seen an opportunity? I mean, I'm sure it happens. But I I rarely see a call where you made an initial call to someone. They say, you know what? I am really upset.

I my mother died. I I I I have this house. I'm emotionally done, and I wanna sell it to you at a discount. Mhmm. Like That's happened.

And let's do it right now. I'm sure it happens. It's not usually a one and done.

Steve: You cannot run a business based off of that.

Jordan: Not a one and done thing. It is very rarely a one and done thing. And and that's where it as well, but the people think of the follow-up. When I teach follow-up, I teach a relationship follow-up. Mhmm.

And I think a lot of people just think you know, they they put these blast cadences together, which are are these impersonal sort of, like and, okay, I guess it's better than none nothing. Yes. Better than nothing. But there are ways to develop these things. And the tools, like, when you connect smartphone with your CRM, we were talking about left main earlier, but any of our CRMs, you have the ability to trigger and customize and make these follow ups seamless and personal and relevant.

And you can use them to build a relationship with someone Because it's that relationship that's gonna end up winning you that sale.

Steve: Absolutely. So one of the things that we've also talked about was bootstrapping. And bootstrapping, because you're you got you got a software company, there's a choice that that has to be made, or should be made, is do you wanna bootstrap this yourself, or do you wanna bring in investors, professional investors? So talk to me. You guys decided to go on the bootstrapping route.

So talk to me what was the decision process or, I guess, first off, what are the pros and cons of each?

Speaker 2: I'm filming this video for the man himself, mister Ian Ross. So Guy Crafts is the guy's the best person in sales I've ever seen. I've invested elsewhere, and I haven't got the same results. I've gone from being a seller, making 5 k a month, to being a hybrid role, making 11 k a month, to now be four months down the line from 5 k to on a closing opportunity, in bound, full calendar with the best opportunity, the best offer in my space. OTE is around 20 k a month from month two.

So I've gone from 5 k to 20 k. If that's not a return on your investment, I don't know what

Jordan: it is, man.

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Jordan: I think alright. The the pro and this is changing right now.

Steve: Mhmm.

Jordan: There is a greater than ever emphasis on bootstrapping. Yeah. Because for a long time, it was just, like, come up with an idea, get seed funding, raise, raise, raise. Right? That was that was the process.

Steve: It's the Y Combinator Silicon Valley.

Jordan: A 100%. Silicon Valley, it's it it it was the process. And the problem is that that process is heavily weighted in one favor, and it's not yours.

Steve: Right.

Jordan: It's the VC companies. Mhmm. 100%. And and you are never in control if you go through that process like that because they are going to first of all, they're smarter at this than you are. Mhmm.

They know the business side of this better than you. Their the terms are gonna be weighted in their favor. Now their the pluses are when you bring in investors in or when you have professional investors particularly who understand software, they can connect you with people that can help you. They've been there and done it. They have management experience that they can bring in who have who understand the challenges and and can help you navigate them.

And I think when it comes time to an exit They've exited software, so they understand how to make those deals, what deals are good or not, how to prepare the company for evaluation and all that. That is definitely a plus. Mhmm. The downside and why boot like, for me, bootstrapping, The downside of bootstrapping is, look, you're using your own money, and and that sometimes limits pace.

Steve: Mhmm.

Jordan: Now too much pace can be bad because you you then run so fast that you trip. Right. The for me, bootstrapping is is being in control of your own destiny as well. It's it's about, you know, where where you have a challenge or the market changes and maybe, you know, the market changes and maybe, you know, growth flattens over here or what whatever. You have the luxury of control and time when you're a bootstrapper.

You you, you've control of your destiny. You you make you can make the decisions, and you can build the team the way you wanna build it. When you get investors in, you immediately like, there's a new trend in investing called, growth equity. So growth you know, the VC model is a really obvious one. Mhmm.

We're gonna make this many bets, and we're gonna assume say we make 20 bets. We're gonna assume one comes off big. Mhmm. Two come off okay, and the rest fail. They would just die.

They would die. But you know what? They don't give a shit about you.

Steve: They don't.

Jordan: So they'll invest. For them, it is And then for them, it is like, we've invested in the thing you care about more than anything. Mhmm. We're gonna give you, whatever, $5,000,000. And, and you and you and the world's your oyster and da da da.

And then a year later, they're like, yeah. You're dead. Mhmm. And you're sitting there going, like, you know, for you, it's an emotional, like, what the hell? You're taking baby.

My baby, and you're killing me. Mhmm. The VC model is is it's brutal. It's vicious, and

Steve: it is Black and white.

Jordan: It's and it's aimed at the and it's their model. Mhmm. Then you got the the angel side of things, friends and family. That's probably the best. If you're gonna get money in friends and family is without the best.

The best comes with other challenges, navigating friends and family. If something doesn't work well and suddenly you've let down your friends and family. Mhmm. Then they've got this new you know, the new trend is in growth equity. And growth equity is you know?

And they all oh, god. I've had so many meetings with these guys. And they all talk they they the narrative is always the same. We're not VC funding. We care about you and but I will say about growth equity, good growth equity, the terms are usually much more favorable.

Mhmm. You and the growth equity is there to come in. There's usually minority stake. They usually they don't always even take a board seat, and they they're there. They want every bet to win.

Mhmm. They don't have the numbers to do the v c. The VCs are doing that bet because the one that makes it makes it for everybody. You're a unicorn. It it's the it's the one that pays the the 17 that failed, it's okay.

We paid that off, and we made a lot of money. Mhmm. The the the the growth equity people are more like, we want everyone to have at least a win. May not be as good as we wanted, but we don't wanna lose on many of them.

Steve: Right.

Jordan: And so it tends to be a bit of a more friendly one. It tends to be, you know, like, if if they're investing 20% of the company. And you also, a lot of times, they'll let you take some chips off the table. So I've got a buddy of mine, in the CEO group of mine of software people. He just had took in a $20,000,000 growth equity, $20,000,000, and 15 of that went into his pocket as as the owner.

So they gave him 15, 15,000,000 in second and in in cash to him taking off Yeah. Chips off the table, and 5,000,000 went into the business Mhmm. To to to bump up the business. Right. Now that's a wonderful model for him because it's like, if this business fails, he's still got $50,000,000 in his pocket.

Right. So that is another that's an angle that and and, you know, if you're scaling your your your software business, I think growth equity is a great once you get traction and you get to a certain size, I'd rather go the growth equity way

Steve: Yeah.

Jordan: Because you could take some chips off the table. Mhmm.

Steve: Take a

Jordan: few million in your pocket and invest in the business. And what they're trying to do is get you to the point where alright. Say you're say they value you at a 100,000,000. They wanna sell you at a value of 300,000,000.

Steve: Mhmm.

Jordan: Right. And everybody goes home real happy.

Steve: Yeah. Well, for me, I looked at that. That's kind of the private equity route. Is that different?

Jordan: It's slightly different. It's slightly different, but, like, private equity plays a slightly different game. But but now if you look at it now, there's you'll see growth equity all over the place. Yeah. And they're they're almost invariably people who worked in venture or worked in private MP, and then they'll have created this model.

They all think it's unique. It's not. Well, they're all like, this is how we're different. I'm like, yeah. Same way that anyone else says they're different.

Like every other marketer. And that's like, we're we're different because we care about you. I was like, well, he said that too. Like, whatever. But but to be fair, I've met a lot of these growth equity people now, and some of them are really, really very good.

They're very knowledgeable, and it's a different mindset and partnership. VC is not a partnership. Yeah. You you they are your masters. Yeah.

They're the boss. And and you are you know? And I didn't get into this game. I've never worked for someone in my adult life. Mhmm.

I did not I have no desire to do it now.

Steve: Yeah. Guys, you know, please, you know, as you guys are listening, please comment below your biggest takeaway from today's show. If there's anything you'd like to see more of, less of, share in the comments. I really do review every single one. So, like, you know, as you guys are taking lessons here, comment below.

It really does help everybody. So we talked a lot about, smartphone and so on. Before we go back to your personal part, like, is there anything here, like, lessons you learn along your journey that you think anyone that's looking to do what you guys have done, they they must know before they go down this road, of of building out a a tool, a software?

Jordan: I mean, number one is listen to your customers. Mhmm. If you're not everyday listening to your customers, then you're going to start failing. Yeah. Because the customers are, you know, that you need to listen to

Steve: them. Mhmm.

Jordan: In general, I think, you know, one of the the thing that separates in my view, the thing that separates the people who do it from the people who don't is that when the shot is there, they take it. Yeah. And and that sounds obvious and simple again. Mhmm. But, like, no matter the people who end up building things and scaling things, I think all have one thing in common.

And that is when the shot is there, they take it, and they don't hesitate. Mhmm. And that is not everybody. It's not. I I it really is not everybody.

There's so many people I've met who are like, oh, I really wanna spend a try the business. And I I speak sometimes, you know, you get brought into entrepreneurial programs at universities and all that. And I I will always go into universities or clubs, entrepreneurial clubs, and talk to them. I'll always give my time. And and, you know, you meet people who have these great ideas, but you see the hesitancy and the risk.

And I will always say to them, look at me. Like, from what I'm hearing, here's my feedback to you. You don't have if you're not you don't sound like you're willing to have take the risk. Yeah. And if you're not willing to to take the risk, you will never accomplish this.

Steve: Right.

Jordan: And that's I think that is one the like, listening to your customers and being and taking the the shot Mhmm. Are the two things that I think are absolutely critical.

Steve: Yeah. I don't get asked to speak in front of, less experienced people so much anymore. But anytime I've been asked, I've always been honored too because I know that one person, the message will land. Maybe two. I know the rest of them is gonna miss, but one person, if we can connect with one person, is worth it.

So looking at you now with everything you got going on, what is your epic life goal? Epic life goal? Mhmm.

Jordan: Well, I'm learning how to fly right now.

Steve: Okay.

Jordan: I'm doing my pilot pilot's license right now. And, In Europe? In Europe. Okay. Yeah.

In Europe. And, my epic life goal is 100% to buy a plane and to be able to say to my wife and kids, hey. You guys wanna pop over to Greece for lunch? I'm not kidding. No.

That's awesome. That's awesome. I live in Poland. And and with some of the planes that I'm looking at, I could get anywhere in Europe on one tank of gas. Mhmm.

And so, like, I can I can imagine a scenario in a few years? Maybe we've exited. You know, if we've exited, and I'm I'm not one of these guys who's gonna have to start again. I'm like, nope. I'm happy enjoying life.

Mhmm. But a 100% of my epic life goal is to be able to, like, wake up and say, hey. Do you fancy go to Paris for lunch? Or do or you Yeah. You wanna you wanna pop over to Croatia for for for a night Right.

And and just be able to do it.

Steve: So whereas I would say, like, hey. You wanna go to Vegas, San Diego? Road trip? You're like, hey. You wanna go to Greece?

Jordan: Yeah. Yeah. Well, that I mean, that's one of the things I love about living in Europe is that, like, you know, obviously, I'm Canadian, so I I understand the scale, and I've lived in The The US as well. But one of the things I love about about Europe is is you do have this playground that's all very accessible within a very small area. And so, like, popping down to the South Of Spain or over to Portugal or, you know, or hopping over to Athens or going up to going up to, you know, Lithuania, The Baltics, or or Sweden

Steve: Mhmm.

Jordan: Or anything like that. You've got such a a huge variety and flavors and cultures, and it's all accessible. And if I have a plane, I'll just be able to, like because you can you can file a flight plan thirty minutes before. Yeah. And it's yeah.

Yeah. Yeah. If you're flying in an IFR, I'm not gonna get geeky, but you can literally fly a file a flight plan thirty minutes before

Steve: Mhmm.

Jordan: And and you're ready to go.

Steve: Yeah. It's a it's a great example because, like, we, as Americans, get knocked all the time for not traveling very much. Right? Like, you guys don't leave the country, but then you look at, like, how big The United States is. You look at how close everything is in Europe.

It's like, you the countries over there are, like, states over here. Yeah. Right. Like The

Jordan: European Union is essentially the the it's it's comparable to The US in the sense that you've got all these different states that have very distinct flavors and cultures too. America, like, jeez, if I've been fortunate enough to be in a lot of different states, and, you know, they're all very they have different cultures, different feelings, different foods, different everything. A 100%, The US is basically a tapestry like Europe.

Steve: Yeah.

Jordan: I do think I do always promote the idea because I've lived in a a number of countries now. I speak a number of languages. How you doing? Well and I I always recommend to people, like and and particularly if you got kids Mhmm. Get them to live in another country.

Yeah. Get them to experience life in another country because

Steve: Oh, we're definitely gonna be doing that.

Jordan: It's just it's a different it gives you such a different appreciation when you get when you immerse yourself, not just, like, on a holiday for a week. Mhmm. But, like, if you immerse yourself into another culture,

Steve: I think it gives you so much. Yeah. Perspective. What do you wanna be remembered for?

Jordan: I think probably that I'm always I've that I always show up. Mhmm. Like, I I I don't really have any needs to be remembered for building great things or making a lot of money. Yeah. I do like to think that I always show up for people.

Yeah. I always show up when I'm needed, and that's probably the thing I I would care the most about.

Steve: I love that. What is your biggest struggle today?

Jordan: Biggest struggle today, you know, like, anything you know, from a business perspective, you know, every you know, the the market's changed and and, there are new a lot a lot a lot of new tools out right now and people are, you know, one of the one of the downsides with our industry is that there's a shiny key syndrome. Like, you know, anytime there's something new and people are, like, following the keys around. So, you know, different you know, making sure that we continue to be focused on our customer base and and and scaling effectively is is definitely an ongoing, challenge. And and, also, we've we've been very fortunate from a business perspective of of having a lot of customers brought to us over the years Right. Because of our CRM connections and all that.

And we're now building up much a much greater emphasis on being able to to to reach out and and and and actively generate more customer bases. And so that's the that's a whole structure I'm building right now.

Steve: And then you were recently reassigned in your organization. That's yes. Oh, talk to me about that.

Jordan: So I when we started Smartphone, I was I started out as the CEO. Mhmm. And then when you're three people, that is the dumbest title in the world. Right? Like, yeah.

I see that all the time. People are like, I'm the CEO of this company. I'm like, there's two of you. Right? Or one.

Yeah. Is it really is that the CEO? But then as the company started to grow, that actually that does become a thing. Mhmm. You know, and, you know, so our journey from so, you know, up to where we we are now, I was CEO, up until March.

Mhmm. And one of the challenges as you scale the business is that a lot of there's a lot of moving parts. And what I was finding is as a CEO and and my my my cofounders were finding is, you know, as a CEO, I suddenly was getting a lot more attention having to be be internal, compliance, and structures, and building, you know, and and building the right structures for how we work and cultural fits and all that. And and I wasn't getting enough time to be what I always have been, which is also the face of the company. Like, I am the face of smartphone in many ways.

Yeah. You know, people know me. You know, like, when I was in Podio, I was the guy up in Podio, and and I you know, I'm still the face of smartphone. And I wasn't finding there wasn't a lot of success with that, and we we decided to reorganize at a board meeting in February. We decided to to basically build the company for the next ten Mhmm.

To 20. And and the the bully you know, and and Vlad and Alex, my cofounders, kind of had put together a strategy and a plan. And that involved me focused much more on Outwards, building partnerships. Yeah. You know?

And and and and building partnerships with people like you and and and focused on on where we're going and and all that and and going on podcasts and writing books and and getting out there. And and so in March, we reorganized the company. We we restructured the executive team, and I moved from being CEO to being chairman of the company. So I I run the board, and I am very much the the the I'm focused on the the marketing, the sales, the the external now, and I have zero, responsibilities on an executive and administrative basis.

Steve: That'd be a lot a lot less stress.

Jordan: Oh my god. Oh my god. Are you kidding? It's great. It's like it's your problem now.

Like, it's been my problem for eight years. Your problem now. But but it's it's smart the way we've well, I think how we've restructured the company is smart. It lets everybody play to their best strengths.

Steve: Absolutely.

Jordan: And like I say, it's it's stress like, I I no longer have responsibility for that, and so I can just focus on on the outwares.

Steve: Absolutely. What we say is your superpower?

Jordan: My superpower is, my ability to visualize. Mhmm. So I back in the day, I was a musician, and I was doing my PhD in, at the University of Edinburgh. And, one of the things I developed was sort of a methodology of analyzing music in a three-dimensional way. Interesting.

Yeah. Well, that's I'm not gonna deep dive into that geeky wise. But, but the short version is I'm not gonna go into the, like, the massive music, but the short version of it is most people think of music in two dimensions.

Steve: Mhmm.

Jordan: They think horizontally. Right? Rhythm and and melody, and they think vertically in terms of pitch and harmony. But the truth of it is that music is also another, kind of, another axis, which is where all the bits, how they all fit together. Mhmm.

Because there's lots of things. When you listen, whether it's a rock song or whether you listen to a a symphony, there are lots of elements, and they're not all at the same part in the spectrum. Yeah. There's background, middle ground, foreground stuff. And so I developed a analysis, and and I've always been of of an ability to visualize and think and and build structures and strategies.

It's what made me a very good consultant. Yeah. And and, what developing marketing and sales strategies and and change management.

Steve: See how everything works together.

Jordan: I I I can visualize and map the the entire company and everything that needs to happen. I can visualize it three d. Mhmm. And that lets me really develop very, very like, I'm I'm really good at that. I can look at something, and I can map it out in a three d way and understand how everything connects together so I know which levers need to be pulled in which ways.

Yeah. That's, I think, my best power.

Steve: Is there a name for that?

Jordan: I have no idea. Yeah. It's not like I wish I had a sexy one. Like, I don't know. I can fly.

But, but but I you know, but it's the truth. I do think that's my my superpower. It's just

Steve: I believe it.

Jordan: Just a really

Steve: weird one. I've never heard anyone describe that, so that's that's really cool. What, what we say is a failure that you learn the most from?

Jordan: Certainly one of the most emotional learning curves. So about two and a half, three years ago, just after that compliance thing I told you about, where I stood in front of that those people. I'll tell you. There was a period of probably six months where, you know, we we we just gotten through this massive compliance battle, and it was just hard. And, you know, now as the CEO at the time, a lot of it went through me.

You know? Like, when the crisis happened, I very much had the, I'm here. I'm in charge of this. Not air that's not ego, by the way. Like, people think, oh, no.

People you need direction. When a crisis happens, you need really clear direction. Yeah. And you need really clear because otherwise, people are running and and and it gets really messy really quick in a crisis. And so, you know, I remember very clearly it was like, look.

Guys, this is the team that's handling this crisis. Everything's gonna go through me. And so, like, you're on comms. You're on this. You're on that.

You're not. And we you know, and I'm gonna right? You you I'm directing it. Yeah. And that's and and people think people are like, oh, like, is that just ego?

No. That's what's needed in a crisis. Yeah. Clear direction. We're yawning through that.

And, and we you know? And I just and I remember there it was just there was six months of slog internally, and we've got a pretty happy culture in the company. And I remember one of our senior people came to me and was like, it's really hard right now and people are just people are really, they're struggling. And I just I took that as such a personal failure Yeah. That I hadn't recognized, that I hadn't, you know, that I hadn't done enough to listen and, you know, like and and and and to listen to them and to understand where things were a problem or Mhmm.

You know? And I just and I'm someone who takes those things very personally anyway. Like Yeah. I take response like, it it cuts me deep, those things. And that, you know, and that was a time when I just my I I wasn't tuned in enough to my people.

Mhmm. And and and they were hurting. Yeah. And I and I had to really go I had to really kind of look at things and look at myself and and what I was focused on and reevaluate that a little.

Steve: Well, I imagine it was even harder because you take great pride in listening to people.

Jordan: Yeah. And then oops. Yeah. Yeah. But I think

Steve: there's also an element of forgiveness for yourself because, like, you needed a wartime CEO. Right? You needed a battle general at that time. Sometimes that empathy or that connection, it's sometimes a luxury. Right?

Like, when when people are are getting shot, like, we gotta Yeah. Triage.

Jordan: Yeah. Yeah. In that situation, it was like, we ain't fucking around. Yeah. Like, this is this is we are dealing with this, and

Steve: I mean deliver die time.

Jordan: Well, and we we had a point where we were because, again, there was some compliance things we had to implement very quickly. And one of our our key developer so, Ovidiu, the guy that you talked to when we were doing the integration with you, his kind of partner in arms is Adi, Adrian. And they're the two heads of engineering. Yeah. And they've been with us forever.

But but Ovidio has been there since day one Mhmm. Actually. And, like, Adi was on holiday, and he was, like, sitting in the back of his car in Greece or in like, driving down through wherever, sitting in the back of his car, building you know, trying to get this code done to to build some, you know, bits of of this compliance stuff that we're building. You know, and it was, like, all hands on deck. It was tough.

But it but it was more the failure afterwards. I and it just I guess it was the failure of not of really just not seeing where everybody was

Steve: Yeah.

Jordan: And not not being attuned to it. And that that was a personal failure.

Steve: Have you done anything with that lesson?

Jordan: Oh, yeah. From every walk of life. You know? I mean, it's so easy to be you know, I would like to think I'm relatively self reflective. And, you know, I look at myself all the time of, am I am I acting or reacting in the right ways?

Like, am I, you know, I am I is my reaction here appropriate? Yeah. You know, you know, and and but but that was you know, am I listening? Am I hearing the things I need to hear or the things I wanna hear? I try and reflect on that on ongoing basis.

Steve: Yeah. No. That makes sense. I have one more question. Two more questions before I ask those questions.

Wanna share you wanna hear an embarrassing story? Love it. So I love that you are talking to your customers. Right? It's absolutely paramount.

You gotta listen to what the customers are saying because that helps guide the direction of our products and features and everything else. So VAPI is the AI tool. I shared that with you. Yeah. It's what we're using to go connect from AI to actual phone system to communications with using our AI bot.

All that. So I get an email from Gabby. Hey. You know, we'd like to talk to our customers. You're a power user.

I'd like to get your perspective and this and that. Right? So I jump on the call. I talked to, you know, one of the engineers. I'm talking to the guy, and he's dropping f bombs.

He's like, okay. That's interesting. You know? Like, I'm not judging. Everyone's got different cultures.

But the way you're kinda talking You sure

Jordan: you weren't talking to me?

Steve: Yeah. I was like, the way he's talking to me, he sounds more like a founder than he is an engineer. So I asked him, like, hey. Like, just give me the speed. Like, what role do you serve with this company?

He's like, oh, you know, I'm in charge of product development, so I just wanna make sure you know what type of customer. The one that engineers here is like, okay. I was like, I accepted that answer. Right? Turns out later on I looked him up later on.

Cofounder. Like, did they just raise, like, $40,000,000 for their business. Cofounder. So he asked me, do you have any other questions? And, again, I don't think I'm talking to an engineer.

I said, hey. Look. The reality of the matter is, like, you're a big part of our tool. If you go down, this is a problem for me, and I need to plan accordingly. I need to know, like, what are my backup options, which we're now investigating backup options in case they go down.

Right? But, you know, seeing how they just raised $40,000,000, they're not gonna go down. But I asked them, like, how do I know you're still gonna be around in December? And he's like, well, I mean, I hope we're still around in December. It'd be like if I asked you, oh, Jordan, how do I know you're still gonna be around next year?

What would you say to that question?

Jordan: What did I say?

Steve: What would you say right now?

Jordan: Easily. We're bootstrapped. Yeah. Yeah. I'd say, you know, we built this company by ourselves.

Mhmm. And, you know, and ain't ain't ain't nothing taking us down externally.

Steve: So, yeah, when I asked them that question, it was like, I didn't know I was talking to the so it's embarrassing, looking at that.

Jordan: Yeah. Yeah. But that's it. You know, you do raise an interesting point with that, though. One of my you know, right now, we're in the glut of AI tools Mhmm.

Area. Right? This is gonna whittle down.

Steve: Oh, yeah.

Jordan: It it has to. There's you know, you can't shake a stick. Like, you can't throw a stick, sorry, right now without hitting 10 new AI companies that have just generated up. Mhmm. And they're all getting funding.

Mhmm. That ledge is coming.

Steve: Yes.

Jordan: Because there's only so much space. It's gonna be

Steve: a little bit of a .com.

Jordan: It a .com bust.

Steve: Yeah.

Jordan: Yeah. Now that doesn't mean AI is going away. AI AI is here to stay. Yeah. Yeah.

AI was a transformational shift. Have you ever read the book, The Structure of Scientific Revolutions I have not. By T. S. Coon?

It's a great book. One of the things he talks about there is this notion of paradigm shifts. Mhmm. Right? When when when the game the rules just change, and you never go and you never go back.

Like, you're here now. Mhmm. Dotcom bust happened, but the Internet Still here. Was was here to stay. The the rules had changed.

Mhmm. AI is another paradigm shift. Mhmm. It's here, and it's here. It the we've shifted.

Steve: Yeah.

Jordan: That said, there are 50,000,000,000 tools going on here, and everybody's building their own and

Steve: all that. Live coding, all that fun stuff.

Jordan: Live coding them. Yeah. Your own. And and one and and to your point, one of the questions you have when you start to integrate with these tools is, well, how do I know you're gonna be here? Mhmm.

Because the truth of the matter is for all of you like, okay. Twilio, you know, Bandwidth, those telecom ones, they're probably gonna be here.

Steve: Mhmm.

Jordan: You know, but but how do I know when all these, you know, Deepgram is over here and VAPI is over here and all these all these tools, how do I know they're all gonna exist? Well, you know what? In a year, I'll bet you 60% of them will be gone.

Steve: Right. Absolutely.

Jordan: We are at that wall, but that doesn't mean AI is going. It just means we're gonna get a consolidation Mhmm. Of tools that are gonna gonna be here for the long run.

Steve: Yeah. So but, yeah, going back to, like, you had you have these conversations. I appreciate that he was having that conversation as a cofounder. So, last question or sorry. Second to last question.

What book have you gifted more than any other? I

Jordan: well, this this sadly not an, not not a business book. The Elements of Style by William Strunk. It's about writing. It's about communication. It's, it's The Elements of Style, I I read it when I was in my undergrad.

I was I was referred to it. Mhmm. And it and it like, genuinely, I've gifted that book so often to people because, you know, people don't understand how to write Mhmm. In a compelling, and concise matter. Yeah.

And then from a business book point of view, because I'm not really a business book guy.

Steve: Mhmm.

Jordan: I read some of them, but you got people who, like, I read a ton. Mhmm. But I read histories and biographies and a a novel. I don't tend to read a lot of business books. That said, I think the Lencioni books, as you're building an executive team and as you're scaling an executive team, I don't think you can go any you can't really do better than the Lencioni books.

Mhmm. And and a book also called The Gap in the Gain.

Steve: Yeah. Those books. Yeah. Gap and the Gain is awesome. It's Dan Sullivan.

And, yeah, like, The Advantage, The Fight and Function of the Team, and more recently, Working Genius. I won't hire anybody anymore without going through Working Genius first. I need to know, like, you love to do what I need this role to accomplish. And then the last book question, and this is definitely selfish for myself. We've got a customer service person joining on Tuesday.

Any books you can recommend? So we're gonna have her read Delivering Happiness as well as How to Never Lose a Customer Again. Can you think of any other books I should have her read? Oh, man.

Jordan: Oh, that's that's putting me on the spot because I really can't right now. I don't think I've ever really read much many that many customer service books.

Steve: Yeah. It's not it's not like the funnest topic in the world.

Jordan: No. This may be, and I'm I'm gonna have to think later. But,

Steve: I think I failed

Jordan: on this one.

Steve: You gotta phone a friend?

Jordan: Yeah. I mean, I'm gonna have to phone for him. Yeah. I think I failed I failed on this one.

Steve: It's all good. Alright. So, guys, if you guys got value here, please subscribe. Share this with someone who needs to hear it. Right now, we're talking about building a company from an idea to 10,000,000.

If you got someone that's aspirational trying to build a business, definitely send this to them. What are some last thoughts you wanna leave everybody with?

Jordan: Well, I think I mean, fundamentally, one of the challenge of talking about scale building businesses and and I know, you know, you wanna you're on the mission to create 100,000,000. People get focused on the numbers very easily.

Steve: Mhmm.

Jordan: And and so they think, you know, a million or 10,000,000 or in software, you know, when you're talking, you oh, they we're getting 40,000,000. We're we wanna exit for 400,000,000 and all that. The prize is great, but I think my least favorite trend that's happening right now

Steve: Mhmm.

Jordan: Is this sort of hyper bro culture. You know, I'm gonna get up at four, and I'm gonna eat raw liver and go to the gym for five hours, and I'm gonna, like and I'm gonna hustle, and I'm not gonna see my kids because that's too like, you know, like I like this is the kind of hyper, I'm gonna you know, and and this idea of sort of, I'm gonna work twenty three hours a day, not twenty two.

Steve: Mhmm.

Jordan: And I'm gonna sacrifice I'm not gonna go have a holiday for four years.

Steve: Mhmm.

Jordan: And it's all in pursuit of this prize. You know? The, and I and I always talk to people call people, like, it's the I'm gonna be happy when. Mhmm. If you live your life by I'm gonna be happy when, that win is never gonna come.

Yeah. And so, like, my only thing is when you're thinking of building a business is an amazing way of of of of creating, a a vehicle to give your family and, you know, wealth for life. Of course, it is. But you can't you can't sacrifice your life now. Yeah.

And so you you you have to you have to be focused on building something which is going to bring you value now as well. And value isn't just money.

Steve: Right.

Jordan: It's freedom, happiness. It's, you know, it's it's it's living your best life now. And that's my one sort of key thing for me when I talk to people about scaling a business because so many people are just like they wanna know about the number. Mhmm. Well, okay.

But it's the quality of life that matters to me.

Steve: Yeah. Oh, it's it's it's important. It's a great reminder. If someone wants to connect with you, what's the best way to get ahold of you?

Jordan: Probably the best way is on LinkedIn, sadly, because I I'm not I'm not the huge Instagrammer or any of that. I am on Instagram, I think, but, but LinkedIn's easy or just, you know, hop over to smartphone.io. Mhmm. But, LinkedIn, I'm there. I'm happy to talk to anybody.

Happy to chat to anybody. My email is Jordan@smartphone.io as well. I'm happy to happy to connect.

Steve: Awesome. Thank you so much. Appreciate it. It's been an absolute pleasure. Pleasure.

And we'll see you guys next time. Shout out to Steve train. Jump on the Steve train. Disrupt us.

How Jordan Fleming Took One Idea To $10 Million In Annual Recurring Revenue

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$6M in Profit in 2025 with Only 12 Employees

How Jordan Fleming Took One Idea To $10 Million In Annual Recurring Revenue

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$6M in Profit in 2025 with Only 12 Employees