Brandon Bateman: Really not cool with when agencies don't give access to the accounts. It's like you telling me that you're gonna do, like, an outsourced sales product for me. Like, oh, just give me all of your leads, and and I'll do the sales. Except, no. You're not allowed in your CRM.
And if you ever leave me, I'm gonna take your CRM and all the data with me, and you're gonna be left with nothing. If you got me just to, like, agree to that because I'm stupid, you would have me basically in, like, a choke hold to continue working with your company to do the sales because
Steve Trang: Welcome, and thank you for joining us for today's episode of disruptors where millionaires are made. Today, we got got Brandon Bateman with Bateman Collective and Brandon Fluent from Salt Lake to talk about how investors are using AI to double their deal flow. Now, guys, I'm on a mission to create a 100 millionaires. The information on the show alone is enough to help you become a millionaire in the next five to seven years. If you'll take consistent action, you'll become one.
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If you're ready to turn your existing sales team into a self managing sales team, go to objectionproof.ai. Ready? Ready. Alright. So it's been a little bit since you've been on, you were here, and you generously provided, I wanna say, a four or five episode series talking about really how to nerd out and geek out and, like, get really good at, PPC.
Brandon: Yeah. You were you were patient. I think we recorded for, like, three or four hours. Like, this is this is our like like, we we did, like, a podcast that's basically, like, a course Right. On on PPC, more of a training.
Right? Talking about, like, the why behind it. Mhmm. Not just, like, press this button, press that button. Yeah.
So, yeah, that that was cool. So if anybody's listening and you haven't seen that and and you're a nerd, you might like it. If you're not a nerd, it might sound like four hours of nerdy stuff that you're not very interested in.
Steve: But I think it's you know, if nothing else, like, it helps you become a savvy, educated buyer. Right? Like, if you wanna be able to, like, quiz someone to see, like, they actually know what they're talking about, Like, that's the one to to to check out. I mean, again, like I said this before, I'll say it again. Like, the reason why I've trusted you is that you could answer my questions after I, did my own PPC for years.
Brandon: Mhmm.
Steve: And then actually have, we held an interview with a candidate a couple weeks back who was the sales director of that company that I had interviewed back in the day. I was like, hey. I just wanna let you know, I was a ready and willing buyer. I needed to find a company that I could pay, right, to do my PPC, and your sales guys couldn't answer a single question of mine. To which you said, yeah.
Unfortunately, at that company, our owner did not want our salespeople to know things because they thought it would hinder the sales. Like, well, hinder that sale.
Brandon: Sure.
Steve: So and there's pros and cons. Right? Anyway so, again, the reason why I have you here and the reason why we're recommending that that old series is that lots of good stuff to hear down on. But at the same time, there have been some changes. Sure.
You know, and, we'll talk about it later on. But, you know, one of the things that, I'm I'm hearing more and more, you know, you go to these masterminds, Hearing more people saying, like, hey. I got this deal because someone went to chat GBT and asked a question, and then my company came up.
Brandon: Mhmm.
Steve: And it wasn't, you know, the 70 year old person who need to sell their house. Sure. It was their grandkid that was helping grandma sell their house. Right? So we'll dive into that later on.
But let's talk about, like, what are some of the things that we've seen in the last, year or so you've seen as far as, like, PPC and marketing and what's going on?
Brandon: It's it's been an interesting year, like, every year is, and and I was reflecting a little bit on this just coming to, just on the plane ride here. This is it's been five years, I wanna say, since we did our first podcast episode together. Mhmm. And and we've done I think this this is our fifth. Yeah.
With the exception of last year, which was, like, four and one. Right?
Steve: Right. So, yeah, I I I thought
Brandon: a lot about all the things that have changed. And and it's it's funny because a lot of things are different, and a lot of things are just, like, the same thing that's that's happening. I mean, for me, it's it's been a massive change because my business has has just grown over those years. Right? So I, like, have like, my life looks completely different now than it did when we first met.
Steve: Mhmm.
Brandon: But as far as, as far as marketing goes, there's some things that have been really consistent and others that have changed. One of the things that's been really consistent over those years is that SEO and PPC are are pretty good channels. Mhmm. There's something pretty interesting, though, that I've noticed. So back back then when when you and I first met, a lot of our clients would come to us saying, like, look.
I just wanna do, like, online marketing because they weren't, like, super savvy about, like, the different channels and how they work. Right? So we would do, like, SEO, and we would do PPC, and we would do ads on social for them. And then over time, we became kinda known as, like, the company that does PPC, PPC, PPC. Yeah.
Right? And and we have more and more clients doing that. But we still have so many of these clients that we've worked with for for now five years or more that we did SEO for. And and we we've done some SEO along the years too. And what's what's been especially apparent to me recently is how powerful it is to have that strategy on multiple of those channels.
We did a a survey across the industry recently, and we asked every real estate investor in in every market to complete this to the best that we could. We we got a lot of people responding to to the survey, and they gave us all the data of how much money are you spending on these different marketing channels? What kind of returns are you getting? Even stuff like what's the profitability of your company and and what kind of spreads do you make from different exits? And and something that I found that was really interesting is as of right now, the number one marketing channel, according to our survey of real estate investors, is Google PPC.
Mhmm. And it's, like, 30 something percent of the of the total marketing budget. Wow. Also really interesting. Mhmm.
Way at the bottom of the list that people are investing in. So there's an average the average investor that filled out our our survey, they're spending about $28,000 a month on marketing. Mhmm. About 2% of that is going towards SEO Right. In the industry.
And, Steve, you're you're a pretty smart guy. Right? I'm assuming you know that when somebody searches on Google, it's not that for every 35 leads that click on the paid ads, there's two that go to the organic results.
Steve: Mhmm.
Brandon: There's there's a lot more than that that go to the organic results. Right? So so if I were to talk about, like, a trend that I'm seeing Mhmm. PPC is good. It's been consistently good over the years.
We have ups and downs for every client. But if we look at our macro level numbers, they're good. And, actually, now there's the lowest they've like, the cost per contract is the lowest spend all year this year, which is which is good. It's a positive trend. And SEO has continued to be a really strong performer over all this time, and our clients have been doing that consistently for a long time.
We're grateful for it too. And what I'm seeing is the number of leads available in the industry from that channel compared to the amount of money being spent on them is really, really high. So it's,
Steve: It's more people spending right now on PPC than ever before.
Brandon: There's so so the the data that I pulled, we just have one snapshot. Alright? We just did the survey this one time. I wish I'd done the survey for the past five years. Right?
So I can see how it's changing over time. But what I can tell you is anecdotally, I I believe that there's more spend on PPC now than there there was before. Mhmm. Even based on, like, cold call, I don't know. What percentage of marketing spend today do you think is going towards cold call?
Marketing spend?
Steve: Yeah. Man, not a whole lot. Less than on average, probably less than 10%, maybe less than 5%.
Brandon: Yeah. 3%. Yeah. So you're you're not far off at all. And that actually was surprising to me because I bet you that statistic as of years ago would have been a significantly higher number, a higher percentage, and people are really dialing down the cold call.
And it's inbound channels that are taking it up. Right? So the number one or or the top four channels right now are PPC, PPL, TV, and direct mail.
Steve: Yeah. Well, I guess for me, the reason why it doesn't surprise me is because you can't spend that much money on cold calling.
Brandon: That's fair. And SEO is a little bit like that too.
Steve: Yeah. Yeah. Like, with cold calling, like, you pull a list.
Brandon: Mhmm.
Steve: Right? You get it monthly, weekly, quarterly, whatever. And it's a good amount of money. Right? But you take that and you cold call, and then you I guess you spend money on, like, cold callers and phone systems and this and that.
But, like
Brandon: It adds up. Because what I will tell you, though, is, like, you would assume it's just cheap and you get a great return. Cold call returns came in lower than any inbound channel that we measured over the past year Interesting. Despite it being really cheap. Cold text actually was doing well, but I don't know if lawsuits are factored in to the total marketing spend.
Steve: I'm surprised, though. Because, like, cold calling the reason why you do it is it's the highest ROI. It's just the labor is hidden. Right? Like, the actual managing cold callers
Brandon: Mhmm.
Steve: Making sure they're on the phones, making sure they're, having the conversations, and then making sure the lead managers are working because you have your lead managers have to work at least twice as hard Sure. On on a cold calling business than they do in any other inbound channel.
Brandon: Yeah. The the whole idea is it's a huge pain in the butt, but it's cheap. So it's worth it. And like I used to, so we, we have people calling us that are just like, not quite ready for PPC yet. Right.
If they just want to spend like, like a few thousand dollars a month on marketing and all day, I would just send those people to cold call, just, just go do this And and you'll get some deals, get some cash flow, and then and then you can level up. You can move into channels like this. And and when I saw that data, it kinda shook me a little bit because that's not true anymore. Like, actually, cold call on average is producing a lower return on investment than the the ROI. Okay.
I can I can pull it up? Yeah. Like, let me let me see what the exact numbers are.
Steve: And, like, as we're going through this, right, like Mhmm. Just for reference, like, how many people fill out the survey?
Brandon: 70. 70. 70 investors. Yeah. So, so I have the data here.
The, so, so one thing I will tell you before we get into like the, the specific numbers is another thing that shocked me is that these numbers in general from return on investment are just lower than what I thought. Because you hear people all the time talking about the the five x return, the eight x return, the 10 x return. And what I learned is that the average real estate investor is spending about 35% of their revenue on marketing Mhmm. Right now, which to me was a shock because of, like, how many clients come into us with this standard of, like, I must get seven or eight x or whatever it is. But in general, it's not quite that high.
It's only
Steve: three x.
Brandon: Three x is about is about the average. Right? And if you're gonna hit three x on average, sometimes, like, your best channels are gonna have to perform better than that, and your worst channels are gonna have to perform worse than that. Right? You can't have, like, your peak performance be three x because then all the channels you test that don't work and everything will drag it down.
Yeah. But cold call is about a 2.25 x, really is what it came in.
Steve: I'm wondering. This is like the people you have reached
Brandon: Mhmm.
Steve: Might be further along in their journey. And so, like, if you were to ask the doc if you were to ask doctors, you know, what kind of car do you drive, there's not gonna be a lot of, like, Hyundais in there. Sure. Right? Like, you're gonna hear, like, Lexus, BMW, Mercedes kinda deal.
Mhmm. Alright. So I'm wondering, like, it was skewed a little bit only because of the people you attract. Right? Because the people that you attract are gonna be, larger deal volume, larger budgets.
And if that's the case, you're probably not good at cold calling. Like, it's just being good inbound, getting getting good at outbound are two different avatars.
Brandon: That's a that's a super fair fair point that there could be some skew Mhmm. In in, like, where the data came from. Yeah. And some of it's our clients. Most of it's not our clients, but they're in our sphere somewhere.
Right? And the fact that they're in our sphere somewhere Sure. And we were able to reach them, many of them through partners and stuff like that that, like, maybe they they don't work with us or something. Yeah. But that it could skew towards people who are more more inbound Right.
Steve: And it's not to discount this data. We're really, I'm I'm just trying to make sense of it.
Brandon: Yeah. It's it's one possible explanation because I I I'm shocked by the 3%.
Steve: Yeah. No. It's like If you're gonna do really, really low. If you're gonna do it, you gotta get five x at least.
Brandon: Oh, yeah. Right? And I think that's why
Steve: to be worth the labor involved. Because, like, it's brain damage. Managing the cold callers and then the lead managers on top of the cold callers. Yeah.
Brandon: I can tell you the business for me has changed a lot over the years too because at the beginning, it felt like everybody we talked to was like, I'm sick of cold calling. I'm sick of the brain damage. Please give me some better leads. And and now everybody we talked to is like, I'm sick of paper lead. I'm sick of the brain damage.
Please give me some more leads. It's interesting because we like like, our messaging used to be, like, don't cold call. Like, do PPC instead, and now we're like, don't cold call. And everybody's like, we don't actually cold call. Why are you even saying that?
Because Yeah. They're doing much less of it now than they used to. But the, you know, the game has just shifted. Right? Because now paper lead there's a lot more of that.
There's a lot
Steve: of paper lead companies.
Brandon: Yeah. Now there's a lot of, people we work with that have been through, like, five PPC agencies, and they're sick of PPC, but they're hoping to find a way to do it better. So it's it's not just, like, moving from cold call to inbound and
Steve: to model is interesting.
Brandon: Yeah.
Steve: So, like, we'll talk about later on, but, like, you know, we had Drew Carroll here with Lead Zolo. Cool. And before, Lead Zolo, he ran a marketing agency. Like, just like info information marketers. Right?
Brandon: Mhmm. And
Steve: I had him do a little rant, you know, towards the end. I was like, alright. Let's pretend we're able to transport you back into those days for the you know, they're not your clients anymore. Like, what would you say? It was a it was a fantastic rant.
That's funny.
Brandon: I'm so curious what he said.
Steve: Yeah. But basically, it's like, you know, it's not the marketing. Right? Like, you actually need to make a good product. Sure.
Right? Because, like, most marketing agencies, like, you know, in the information space, they don't really sell their products because if they have great products, you don't spend as much on marketing to get it out there. Sure. So, and and and and to that point, like, we have a guy in our team, who prior working for us sold visas to go from Africa to Europe. Because the way it works is once you get into Europe, like, they don't kick you out.
Brandon: Oh, interesting. So, like, that's what he saw. He was like,
Steve: I don't feel good selling this.
Brandon: Mhmm.
Steve: Right? So I was like anyway. So, yeah, agency is just it's just a tough model because it's your fault no matter what. Like, no matter what happens.
Brandon: It's yeah. It's the agency's fault. That's true. Yeah. Right.
Steve: So it's tough it's a tough, tough business. Like, true or not it feels true to the client.
Brandon: Sure. Yeah. So to us too, you know, because, like, well, while we could all every day, we could say, it's never our fault. Like, we try to have a culture of ownership too where every single thing we look at, maybe there's factors outside of our control. But, you know, just like Stephen Covey says, you have your circle of influence and you have your circle of control, and you just focus on that circle of control and the circle of influence will will come around.
But it there are a lot. Sometimes it feels like the circle of control is a little smaller and the circle of influence is really, really big. Right? So that that's a that's a battle of an agency for sure.
Steve: Right. So, anyway, going back to you, you're saying, like so the comp so there's just more and more people looking at PPL now. So your competition is not necessarily cold calling with more PPL.
Brandon: Yeah. Yeah. What do you do to combat that? Well, it's it's interesting because the industry goes through waves. Right?
Like, something something that we saw. So we've actually done some pretty in-depth studies, and and one way that we do this is we measure how many people are searching for different things on Google over time to measure product interest. Right? So I can I can show
Steve: you, like Right? Like, no. I don't think I
Brandon: don't think there are a
Steve: lot of people that do that.
Brandon: That's No. It's awesome. It's like a weird, like, PPC nerd kind of perspective on market share. Right? Because the idea is when something's more popular, there's more people searching for it on Google.
That's a reflection of, like, the brand awareness or the number of people that use it. Yeah. Right? So so I mean Where
Steve: the attention is going. And if you you know where that's I mean, it's it's a Wayne Gretzky's quote quote. Right? Like, don't tell me where the puck is. Tell me where the puck is going.
Yeah. I know where the puck is going.
Brandon: Yeah. Yeah. Exactly. So what what we did is we we we, like, mapped out on there how are things changing over time, like investors looking for PPC services, investors looking for PPLs, specific PPL companies, all that stuff. And what we saw is last year, we started losing a lot more deals to PPL, and PPL was booming.
Mhmm. And then this year, the sentiment this is another side. This is like AI insights from from all of our sales calls that are recorded is everybody like, they boomed on it, and everybody was excited about it. And what happens to PPL when supply their supply of leads stays relatively static, but the demand for leads goes up? Well, they either have to get expensive or they have to get bad.
There's there's kind of no no other way to deal with that problem unless you can just create more supply on demand, which usually people can't do at least linearly. Right?
Steve: Yeah.
Brandon: So so, yeah, we there there was a big boom in paper lead last year, and now the general sentiment is a lot of people feel pretty pretty, like, burned Mhmm. From from paper lead. Yeah. And they're shifting more towards PPC for sure. And it it goes back and forth.
Like, everybody flow.
Steve: Right? I mean, we talk about, like, was it laissez faire? Right? Like, the free the the market is a free hand, something like that. I'm totally butchering it.
But, like, the money will go where it's supposed to go.
Brandon: Yeah. So
Steve: if all the money's going there, now it's a problem. Well, the money will go away.
Brandon: Sure. Capitalism is is, not perfect, but it's the best we got, and it's definitely good at that. Right? People will spend the money where it's good. The thing that's crazy about real estate investment is because, like, people have so much influence in the real estate investment game.
It feels like more so than other markets. Everybody follows one thing, and then everybody follows the other thing. And in some ways, they get burned by it because the thing gets worse when they all go there. Yeah. And then it's it's kind of like, you know, the the concept with the stock market of when everybody's getting out.
Stock picker. Yeah. When everybody's leaving, you that's when you go in. And when everybody's going in, that's when you might wanna leave. Yeah.
It's it's very, it's very normal, but, you know, we're not wired like that.
Steve: We're not. We're wired to follow for safety. Yeah. But, yeah, like, if you were to buy everything Warren Buffett buys, like, three months later and sell everything he sells three months later,
Brandon: you're kinda screwed. Sure. Sure. Yeah. Like, he he did it when he did it for a reason, and and it doesn't mean you can just copy him later.
Steve: Yeah. Yeah. Totally agreed. Okay. So, so it ebbed out.
Like, the water kind of flowed out, and now it's flowing back in. So you're gaining more and more interest now in PPC.
Brandon: Yeah. And it never, like, went down necessarily. Like, we've never had, like, a down year as a company or anything like that. But, yeah, we definitely see see the amount of interest for one thing versus the next. Yeah, it changes.
Right. Sometimes the game gets a little harder for us. Sometimes it gets a little easier for us. And the problems change, right? If everybody goes towards PPC, then PPC gets more expensive and now it's hard for, it's harder to get results.
And and this stuff even happens on, like, a per market basis. Mhmm. Right? So there's it it's like it's a wild world of real estate. Like, everything's always changing out there.
And I I'm a firm believer that consistent people create consistent businesses. Right? So that's what I've always done is just stay really consistent with what we're doing. Like, things are good. Okay.
We're working hard to get better. Things are bad. Okay. We're working hard to get better. Like, there's no metric you can show me my business that changes what I'm gonna do.
I'm just gonna keep on getting better every single day. And that's that's the strategy.
Steve: And on top of that, I'm seeing more and more PPC providers out there.
Brandon: Sure. Yeah. There's there's always there's always been a lot, but it feels like there's even more recently.
Steve: Well, I have definitely more reaching out to me. Like, hey. You want an affiliate or something? I was like, well, it's kinda complicated. Yeah.
So what's going on there? Like, what what do you do to prepare for what it seems like the study onslaught of more and more people, like, wanting to to jump in there?
Brandon: Yeah. And it's still, like may I say the same thing I said, like, twenty seconds ago? Like, okay. Things are tough. We'll just get better.
If things are good, we'll just get better. Like, we've we've always seen like, so so my focus for especially, like, the past two years Mhmm. This is gonna sound, like, super cheesy. It's it's like one of those those things that you, like, read in a book, and you're like, okay. Whatever.
That's not real life. And then and then you actually do it. But the the huge focus is the thing that we push internally is we're just looking for a win win win. Right? What that means is first, a win for the client.
Mhmm. Second, a win for the employee. Third, a win for the company.
Steve: Yeah.
Brandon: Right? And if we can find those things that we can do that produce all of those, then all parties are benefiting. And through focusing on that, like, now my employees are paid more than ever. My clients are getting better results than ever. The company is doing better than ever.
And it's just because, like, the same thing. It's like, if if you're just if you're just always training harder than anyone else Mhmm. Then they can't, in theory, catch up to you. Right? It's if we start to rest, if we start to lose our focus on being obsessed with getting really great results for our clients, that's where that's where I would be concerned.
Steve: So let's talk about last year. What you say, alright. Just get better. Right? And it's kinda like, Janko Willink has this great video.
Right? Good. Something bad happens? Good. Now we can do this.
So what are those things you're saying that get better, which is a great, motto? What are what have you done to get better in the last year?
Brandon: There's I mean, there there's so many things, and some of them are, like, internal stuff that probably nobody here, like, cares about, and others of those are are are really important. Let me start from a leadership standpoint. Yeah. And then we can talk, like, more specific ads and stuff. I can tell you a really big shift that we've had from the standpoint of leadership is for a while, I was just scared to really build out the team that you need in the company.
Mhmm. And I think a lot of it came down to the fact that I, like, we never had, like, a CFO. We never had somebody who, like, understands financial models, understands how, like, these different things benefit. So so what's been happening, like, slowly over time is we've just been leveling up the leadership team. Mhmm.
And and I can tell you from from my experience, it's been it's been really, really impactful to bring in people who have historically done what we want to accomplish Mhmm. And and have them do it for us. And, like, I I don't know why I didn't do that before. Mostly because those people are just really, really expensive, and now we've learned that, like, oh, but they only have to do this much better for them to pay for themselves, and it's Right. And it's super worth it.
So so I'd say just, like, leveling up the team is really important. Like, just little examples of this is, like, on a quarterly basis, we we will rank everybody on the team as an a player, b player, c player, d player, e player
Steve: Mhmm. Or,
Brandon: I'm sorry, f player. Right? And and s and d's are easy. Like, you just move them out. Cs are where it's really tough.
Right?
Steve: Mhmm.
Brandon: And and when I first started doing this, I realized, like, we have more c's than we wanna have on the team, and we just have to move them up or out really quick. Right? So we started this role. We're like, you can't report that someone's a c player, like, two times in a row. Like, they either you're going to level them up, which that's the preferred thing.
Right? That's better for the employee. It's better for the company. Or they have to move out of the company. And and those are those are the only options.
Right? So we've been kind of, like, we've we've been focusing a lot more on that and bringing even better people in, and and it's just it's kinda blown my mind in terms of, like, the the kind of the kind of people we can have in the company, the kind of culture we can have in the company. So so that's that's one thing. As far as ads go and SEO and all that kind of stuff, it's really just this game of of always testing. Like, I feel like marketers are generally pretty reactive.
Mhmm. The way that they work is they say, oh, you know what? We got we got 15 leads this week, mister client. And and then next week, the the client says, oh, no. We got, we got 10 leads this week.
What happened? Oh, our conversion rate went down. What are we gonna do? Okay. Let's let's launch a landing page test.
Right? And they keep on playing this game just over and over again where they're just reacting to the data. Instead of saying like, oh, our conversion rate's 35%. Great. Let's launch a landing page test.
Our conversion rate's 2%. Great. Let's launch a landing page test. That's kind of been our strategy. It's just always be improving Mhmm.
All the time. It doesn't matter what the it doesn't matter what the metrics say necessarily. That could be indicative of a constraint. But just being really objective. And this is something that we've done pretty well over.
I can tell you, it's been more than five years, Steve, since we spent a dollar that wasn't on some type of split test. Mhmm. Like, you'll talk to agencies that are like, oh, we don't test for our clients because then we give them unproven things. But what they don't realize is, like, that's that's the game. It's just always be testing, always be moving.
You don't have to spend all your budget on it. And you can also test amongst multiple things that are good. Mhmm. Right? Multiple things that are working across markets to see what's gonna work best in that market.
But that's that's like our KPI. Like, that data that you get from those tests is, like, the currency of getting better, and we're just constantly doing it.
Steve: We had an ops manager who let go, and we have a guy in marketing.
Brandon: Mhmm.
Steve: His complaint about a marketing guy, who's internal, is that he's constantly testing. Like, we can't have this many tests going on at the same time. Like, when at what point do we settle? I was like, alright. We're good.
Brandon: Like, Like,
Steve: that was his complaint. I was like, usually the challenge is to get the guys to test more.
Brandon: Sure. And you gotta be careful about what you test Mhmm. And stuff. I can tell you a lot of our clients wanna test more than you probably should Mhmm. In the sense that they'll launch a landing page test and look at it and we'll be like, okay.
This is probably gonna take, like, nine months to get enough data to know that, like, version a works better than version b. And then a month later, they're like, ah, forget it. I wanna do this different thing. Mhmm. And they just start a bunch of tests that they never actually finished.
Steve: Definitely. We don't wanna do that. That's bad.
Brandon: Right? But if you do it right, there's like a and if if you if you don't know how to do it right, like, just take, like, a statistics one zero one course. Like, it's not that hard. However, people just violate the rules of statistics, like, every day, and that's why they don't they they aren't good at testing.
Steve: So, yeah, I would say, like, Ben on our team, he's consistently testing. So we have, like, 60 to 70% of, like, alright. This is, like, the what do you call it? The control case. Sure.
Right? And then 40%, new ads. Right? Let's see. Let's 30% of our budget, test new ads, see if we can beat the control.
30% of budget, test if we can beat the control. Control doesn't change until it's beaten. Sure. Then that's a new control.
Brandon: And then you have a, yeah, and then you have a new control. Ex exactly. And and that's that's the game, and it's a it's a pretty simple concept, but it's one of those things. It's just it's just, like, the disciplined action of just doing that thing. Is hard.
Steve: Like, it's completely reasonable and rational Sure. And normal. Right? Mhmm. From your world.
We don't see this in the real estate investing world.
Brandon: Yeah. I have a hypothesis for why.
Steve: Go for it.
Brandon: I could tell you testing in real estate investment is really, really hard. Mhmm. The reason it's hard like, how many businesses do you know out there that could have, like, five customers a month and be killing it? There's there's not
Steve: Yeah.
Brandon: Very many. But, like, five customers a month is, like, a pretty decent real estate investment business. Like, that's a 7 figure real estate investment business with the average deal spreads. And so what what happens is you just don't have that much data flowing through the business, and the market's always shifting and and stuff like that. So it's, I think, just a really hard business to do tests in Mhmm.
Because you don't have enough data to to see it through.
Steve: I hate sorry if this offends anybody. I hate the advertising in our business, in the real estate business. Sure. Like, we talk about all the time. Like, you know, the and I'm definitely, you know, what's the word I'm looking for?
I run counter. What's the word I'm looking for? Like, I'm the I'm I'm very different in philosophies as far as, like, how to have a conversation. Like, you know, business owners, like, how many offers do you make? How many offers do you make?
How many offers do you make? That's that's one of the KPIs. How many offers did you make? Mhmm.
Brandon: And I'm
Steve: the one, like, don't make any offers. Right? Either they were selling our their house to us or they're not. Right? And so the and I shared this with you before.
Right? The problem that is that advertising says we'll give you a cash offer
Brandon: Mhmm.
Steve: In seven hours, less twenty four hours, less whatever. It's like, well, stop saying we'll make offers. Like, you know, we can pay a fair price. We can pay cash. And, you know, I'll say things like, we can put cash in your hands in as little as twenty four hours.
Sure. Right? Like, because what do they want? Cash? Like, we'll give you cash.
Like, that's not an issue. Yeah.
Brandon: It's not
Steve: gonna be all the cash, but we can put cash in your hands. Right? Mhmm. Which is, like, solves a lot of their problems. And so, like, the message of, like, get a cash offer from me doesn't solve their problem.
Brandon: It's like the it's the in between. It's the thing that in theory could get them there, but you're you're you're telling them
Steve: Right.
Brandon: We'll give you food instead of we'll we'll make sure you're full. Full.
Steve: Yeah. It was like, you know, we wouldn't measure someone's golf game by, like, how many times did they get, drove it and landed in the fairway. Sure. We wouldn't. Like, how many fairway shots did you hit today?
It's like, no. What was your score? Yeah. Right? So, like, why is it Yeah.
That's fair point. We only measure this thing, which the homeowner doesn't care about. They don't want a cash offer. They want you to solve their problem.
Brandon: Yeah. That's a super fair point. And I I wanna say we tested that too because you and I had a conversation. We had a conversation
Steve: about it. I don't know if you tested it.
Brandon: Yeah. We had
Steve: a conversation about it.
Brandon: Probably. We probably did. We have so many tests. I just don't remember, like, the outcome of it. I could look it up in our system because we, like, log all of them and and what the outcome was.
But, that's, that's an interesting interesting concept for
Steve: sure. I mean, like, I helped a client, rewrite a commercial, using a VSL format or a VSLs letter format. Right? Hitting the point to, like, you know, like, talking about, you know, when we come over, we can we can share with you how you can, you know, a, b, and c, like, talk about the outcome that they
Brandon: want. Mhmm. Right?
Steve: And we can figure out how to do that in our meeting versus, like, when we make a cash offer. So, we were on a whole, like, thirty second commercial or sixty second commercial. He never ran it. Right? Because, like, he was afraid, like, if I do this other ad and I'm spending $1,015,000, like, what's gonna happen?
Yeah. Alright. There's a fear component behind it.
Brandon: There is. And and part of it I mean, that that's part of why I like what we do because, like, the the fact that there's not that much data in the industry, you can get past that if you can test things in bulk Mhmm. Across a bunch of different markets, which is what we do mostly. Yeah. So instead of saying, like, mister client, here's your landing page, and we're gonna test this instead.
Steve: Mhmm.
Brandon: And here's, like, the typical way an agency would work is you say, you know, here's the wireframe for the new one. How do you like this? Okay. Let's let's let's, like, now do the design. How do you like that?
Okay. Now let's run side by side and test. And, like, nine months later, you finally know what works better, what doesn't. Mhmm. We just change stuff across all of our clients' landing pages at once, and I can press a button, change one thing across 200 landing pages.
Yeah. And then in two days, get enough split test data to know, does version a or does version b work better? And I I much prefer that form of testing because I can do, like, 50 split tests by the time you can do one split test. Alright. And we just move forward way faster.
But if you're just taking if if you're alone and you just have all your budget that you're putting towards this thing, it's it's a harder position to be.
Steve: Yeah. You have to be crazy like me because that's what I would do.
Brandon: Yeah. And and, you know, if if, if any industry has a few reckless people in it, let it be real estate investing. Yeah. You guys are you guys are a little bit crazy. Right?
I've never seen a group of people so willing to just start over at any given moment.
Steve: Over and over again?
Brandon: Yeah. Over and over again. It's it's actually like like, if I was gonna go on my, like, my rant about the industry and, like, Drew Carroll style Yeah. It's like, you know what? Consistent people produce consistent businesses.
If your business isn't consistent, look in the mirror, and maybe if you're more consistent with what you do in the business, then the business would be more consistent.
Steve: Right.
Brandon: That's it.
Steve: Not wrong. Not wrong. Okay. What else are you doing?
Brandon: Or is
Steve: there anything else that you could think of that jumps that jumps out at you that you guys have gotten done to get better? Right? Again, because you have, what do you call it? The wall? The is that the enemy at the wall?
Was it but, you know, there are people coming for you, right, at all times?
Brandon: Mhmm.
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Brandon: g. I think one thing that we've really doubled down on is the AI side of Google Ads. Mhmm. This and this is something where if if if anybody here is listening to this and has also listened to all of our previous podcasts, which if if you have, I'm I'm sorry because you've you've listened to me for, like, probably at least six hours in your life, and that's just that's just too much.
Steve: Right.
Brandon: But but, anyways, if if you listen to all that, then then you'll know this is this sounds similar to what I've said in in previous episodes. And it's this idea that where a lot of people are going wrong with Google Ads is they're targeting. They're not finding the right true motivated sellers. And what it comes down to is Google doesn't understand the difference between a seller and a motivated seller. Mhmm.
And you and I know that 98% of sellers are just sellers. Right? And 2% of sellers are motivated sellers. And the problem is that motivated seller to Google might look basically the same as the seller. And those 2% get grouped in with the 98%.
Then you start to generate leads, and you're just gonna end up with the 98% and the 2% kind of mixed in there instead of just the 2%, which is what you care about.
Steve: Right.
Brandon: So so that's the that's the problem. And how do you get past that problem? Well, Google it's kind of evolved over time. Right? At the beginning, you you probably remember this is back when you were running PPC, like the old manual CPC days when you would you would say, like, I like, picking stocks manually.
You know? You basically say, like, I I think this one's gonna be good. I'm gonna go go after this keyword, and I'm gonna bid more there. And and that that worked to some extent. The the problem is I actually have, like, a full database showing everything.
So so we generated this point over $200,000,000 in revenue for our clients.
Steve: Mhmm.
Brandon: I have a list of what did the person type into Google, and then was it a part of that revenue or not? How big was the deal spread from that? And what's the likelihood that it turned into a deal? And you'd be surprised. Like, some of the some of the, like, things that we think as marketers because the the standard way that people would set it up is, like, well, sell my house.
That's more retail. I'm gonna bid less on that. Sell my house fast. Well, that's good. Let me bid let me bid more on that because the word fast means it's a better lead
Steve: Right.
Brandon: Which it's it's actually not, by the way, based based on our data. And and you could do that for every little keyword, everything you could do. And then and then we kinda set up this, like, this, like, ivory tower marketing campaign where, like, I'm the marketer, and I know everything about what's good, and I and I've decided to target like this. And then and then over time, Google's shifted. So so they they release these bid strategies called automated bid strategies.
Mhmm. People don't like them because the word automated is in them, and automated implies my agency is not working hard on my behalf. Mhmm. They like manual. Like, we're they they wanna pay the portfolio manager who's, like, picking stocks.
Work for your money. Yeah. Yeah. Exactly. So and and at the beginning, these these strategies were, like, really bad.
These are all AI strategies, by the way. And Google's been at this for I don't even know how many years they've had automated strategies.
Steve: Mhmm.
Brandon: It's I know they only really started to get good around 2020. Mhmm. Prior to that, they were they were not quite as good. And what the difference is is the manual strategies are basically me saying as myself, an ivory tower marketer, saying this is what I think is good. The automated strategies start to include a lot more data points because Google has all this data on individual users that we just don't have otherwise.
Right? They they know the little things. Like and and they don't tell you everything they know. The little things. And and the big things.
Right?
Steve: They know all the things.
Brandon: They know all the things. Like, like, I'll give you a classic example of something you don't target buying Google, but Google knows this Mhmm. Is did they visit uhaul.com yesterday? Mhmm. Right?
And are they more likely or not to be a motivated seller if they visited uhaul.com? Maybe. Maybe a little bit more likely. Right? And and Google Google knows all of that stuff.
Mhmm. So these automated based strategies, they're AI based strategies that look at tens of thousands of data points that Google has on each user, and it predicts the likelihood of this person completing a conversion event in in your ad account. Right? And and those basically, what happened with those is at first, they were really bad. And then some of the biggest advertisers out there started to realize, wait.
These things actually work really well. Right? So they start to tell people, like, these these these bid strategies are actually working really well. And then, like, the standard people out there are all saying, I don't know what those people are talking about. It's not working well for me.
And the difference was these these machine learning algorithms, like picture, like, OpenAI's model. Like like, if if OpenAI's model had is the exact same model it is, but it didn't have all the training data that it has, how smart would it be? Not smart at all. It would be just a really dumb algorithm that, like, has so much potential. Mhmm.
But it's just dumb because it hasn't learned everything yet.
Steve: Not a training data.
Brandon: No training data. Right? So these automated bid strategies, they're really smart. They have all those data points that are predictive, but they if they don't know the outcome that you're carrying that you care about, then they don't actually connect it. They don't have a lot of that data.
So so what we've been leaning into, and you heard me say this, like, five years ago, we've been leaning into is there's this concept. Everybody knows this is true, that if you have more spend, you get better results Mhmm. On Google PPC. Right? Everybody, like, knows that's true.
But what people get it wrong is they they misunderstand why that's true. They assume that more spend equals, like, I get maybe, like, a bulk discount with Google, Maybe with more spend, you know, they value me more as a client. They give the good leads to the people who spend more, and then they give the bad leads to people who spend less. Interesting.
Steve: This is
Brandon: the kind of stuff that people assume. But the reality is more spend equals more data. More data equals better results. Right. Right.
And then what we've been doing for five years is trying to figure out how can we make if we know that more data equals more better results, how can we make it true that even if somebody is not the biggest investor in their market and not the biggest investor in The United States, how can they have more data than their competition even if they don't have more spend than their competition? Right. So it can still be true that more data equals better results. So that that's basically the game of what we do. It's it's better quality data
Speaker: Mhmm.
Brandon: And more data. The more data is we're aggregating this data across all of our clients, and we're training this this really advanced AI algorithm that Google has based on all this data so we can get smarter and smarter.
Steve: No. It's interesting. And I don't mean to hijack your conversation here. Mhmm. But, like, you know, we're building our own AI tool out.
Mhmm. I was looking at it, as of yesterday. I think as of yesterday. It crossed the barrier crossed the barrier of a 100,000 call reviews.
Brandon: That's a lot of call reviews. That's insane. Lot of call reviews.
Steve: Yeah. Yeah. So, data. Better data. More stuff to train the data.
Find out what works, what doesn't work.
Brandon: So Yeah. Yeah. That's that's the big thing. And then the other big thing is is, like, yeah, better quality data there. Mhmm.
And and that just comes down to, like, the the the discipline that we've had for for years of just tracking for each and every lead, what ends up happening with that lead. And then we're optimizing campaigns for what's generating deals and what's generating revenue, not just what's generating leads. And that's the that's the disconnection point where where most agencies can't, can't make it work.
Steve: So there's two different things. And we talked about this before, but we're gonna we just rehash it real quick. So there's the automated bid strategy. Right? So using all the data points about that human being.
Right? Because they're watching what websites you're visiting.
Brandon: Mhmm.
Steve: They're watching what YouTube videos you're watching, and they're watching your emails.
Brandon: Yeah. Yeah. And if you if you doubt me, you can there's a there's a Chrome extension you can get, that will check, like, what scripts are on different websites. And you go to almost any website in the world, what are you gonna find? You're gonna find Google Analytics.
And that's where Google gets so much data from.
Steve: Yeah. So Google knows everything about
Brandon: you. Mhmm. And on
Steve: top of that, you also feed it, like, what what a win looks like.
Brandon: Yes. So we can differentiate that 2% of the market from that 98%. Right.
Steve: So you think we we we want we talked about lead sculpting before, but you wanna just highlight real quick what lead sculpting is, kinda how it all blends together?
Brandon: Yeah. And this is so so there's different techniques for this. Right? This is where, like, actually, the way we're doing this has evolved a ton in the past year. But probably not like, if anybody listened to me a year ago, they might not actually recognize how how it's changed because it's it's like some of the, like, nitty gritty of how how these concepts are applied has changed.
But the, yeah, the idea of lead sculpting is again, it's this this this concept of we wanna get better quality feedback to Google. So where someone would typically say, I'm getting a lead on my website when somebody fills out the form. What we like to do is we look at how they fill out the form, and there's different things we're looking for. Like, even down to the level of is we'll we'll, like, scrub the phone number and make sure it's valid. We'll we'll look at the IP address, see if it's out of country.
We'll look at, how they answer the question, is your house listed on the market or is it not? And based on that, we we know something about, is it more likely to be a motivated seller or not? And then we conditionally report to Google that a lead happened. And if somebody fills those things out wrong to the client, they still get the lead. Right?
It's still a lead generated
Steve: Mhmm.
Brandon: Because, you know, those still can have value in some way or another. But we wouldn't tell Google that it's a qualified We
Steve: wouldn't give Google the thumbs up.
Brandon: Right. There's no there's no thumbs up. Right?
Steve: Attaboy. Yep. Give me more of these. No. We don't do that.
Brandon: Yeah. Google is just like Pavlov's dog. You know? You give him a you give him a treat eventually, like, you know, you ring the bell, and it's gonna it's gonna salivate. And you you spank it after it gets you a bad lead, and it it might stop getting you bad leads.
Right? This is like like I know it's I know it's technically, like, a technology company, but it it behaves behaves like
Steve: You give it carrot and stick. Oh, yeah. Yeah. Like, hey. Here's a carrot.
Good job. Here's a stick. Bad job. Over and over again. Eventually, it only gives you the what you want.
Brandon: Yeah. What most people end up doing is kind of analogous to having a cold caller. Mhmm. And just every time you get a lead from the cold caller, just brawl in with it, whatever it is. Instead of the idea of going back to the cold call and saying like, I know you said this was a lead, but this one really wasn't a lead, like, for this reason.
Mhmm. Or this this other one that this call that I heard you just, like, drop the the phone on and say, like, I I don't wanna pursue this person. That was actually a really good lead. Why'd you do that? Right?
It's it's giving that giving that feedback stressful ones.
Steve: Yeah. Yeah. Seriously. It's it's Giving a bad lead? Okay.
Fine. Yeah. Or, like, hey. Why did you hang up
Brandon: on that guy? Well, I feel the same way about, like, people investors focus so much on, like, the leads and how bad they are, but they focus so little on all the leads they should have gotten that they didn't get. Like, I feel the same way for for, like, landing page conversion rates. It's like no investor that we work with seems to care about their landing page conversion rate. Meanwhile, I'm like, you realize, like, four of the clicks that you pay for don't turn into anything.
Mhmm. And then one in one in five of them actually turns into a lead. I'm more concerned about the four that didn't turn into a lead than I am with the fact that this this one one in five was was retail or something. But it's a That's a good marketing perspective. Sure.
Steve: Right? Because that's something that I I have my own marketing coach, and that's one of the things that was, like, you guys are so focused on, like, how to get this from, like, 70% to 19%. What happened to the other 80%?
Brandon: Sure. Sure. You it'll never be a 100%. I might
Steve: be a 100%.
Brandon: Be a 100%. You can't. You but but there's, you know, there's leaks in the bucket. Some are bigger than than others. Right?
Steve: Yeah. But we're so focused, like, when we said this word instead of that word, we use this color instead of that color. But, like, psychologically, what's missing from this page that got five or 10% not to opt in? Yeah. Right?
So, like, what's missing versus, like, how can we change this?
Brandon: Yeah. It it totally makes sense. But, yeah, by doing by doing all these things I'm talking about, we we just we did this industry survey. And probably the thing I'm most proud about is the average Bateman Collective client that filled out the survey had half the number of leads per contract in PPC compared to the average company in their in their PPC campaign.
Steve: Let's talk about that. Yeah. Alright. So what prompted you to do this, industry survey?
Brandon: So so, honestly, I'll I'll use this as an illustration for what I talked about before about, like, good people. So I you you know Mark Stubler. I think he was on the podcast. So so Mark Stubler and I went down to Puerto Rico, and we were helping out Jerry Norton with something. He had an event down there.
Steve: We're
Brandon: recording some content. And, you know, if if you've ever been there in Jerry's, like, sketchy hotel, like, we were sitting in a, like, sketchy hotel lobby at the end of this thing. And it's it's, like, 11:00 at night, and we're just kinda talking about nerd stuff because Mark and I are like that. Right? And I'm like, Mark, you should see some of this data I got.
This is such cool data. So I start pulling this stuff up. And and he sees, like, some of these insights that we're able to drive from this. And he's so so he looks at me, and he's like, Brandon, I want you to tell me exactly what you were doing when you thought about this Mhmm. When you got this idea.
And and I thought about it for a second, and I was like, Mark, this isn't my idea. I didn't think about this. I actually had nothing to do with it actually even happening. Someone else had the idea. Someone like, this is the marketing person on my team.
He had the idea. He pulled together all the resources to make it happen. He built the software to to deliver it. And now we're at a point where somebody can go on to this website. They They can fill out some information about their business, and we'll deliver a full customized report to them showing how their business differs from the average business that that filled out the survey.
And and it's it's really, really powerful. But the the spirit of it, like, why he wanted to do this, it it comes down to a couple of things. One, the data that we got through that survey is strategically collected so that we can do better marketing for our clients. Mhmm. So we learned a lot of things, this data, which helps us optimize.
Yeah. So that that's one thing. And then two, it's it's just a good value add for for the industry. We're, like, the the data people in the industry, so it's a good way for us to, like, on brand provide value to more investors. And for me, the reason I'm passionate about it is because the way that most investors know how their performance is is based on somebody that they talk to at a bar, at a mastermind.
And they're like, oh, your your PPC per cost per lead is $200? Well, mine's $400. I must be really bad at PPC. That's probably what's going on. And they don't they don't see the whole picture.
They don't understand it. And they get one data point, and they, like, over leverage on that data point versus what what we're doing here is we're aggregating a lot of that data so we can kinda smooth it out and get a good picture and just a glance of a lot of investors and what's going on with them. It's kind of like if you think about it, it's a lot of the benefit that people get from a mastermind, but it's just delivered in a completely different way. Now I'm I'm a huge proponent of masterminds. I'll support them because there's lots of other great things that you get from masterminds.
But a huge piece of it is understanding where you stand compared to the average company that's something like you. Because where your numbers look different than everybody else's numbers might be evidence of where you're weak or where you're strong.
Steve: Let's say yeah. Or vice versa.
Brandon: Yeah.
Steve: Yeah. Okay. So someone from your team came up with the idea. Still with you?
Brandon: Yeah. Well, actually, soon, no. Hopefully, there's a find out from this. Okay.
Steve: So alright. So we have the idea. Yeah. It's not ever enough just to have the idea. Right?
We gotta execute it. Sure. How difficult was it to execute this plan?
Brandon: I mean, it's pretty difficult because the the objective that we had was that the data is actually really clean. And I found a 101 ways to do this with AI where the numbers just don't add up at the end of the day. And, like, they didn't do this. By
Steve: the way.
Brandon: I don't
Steve: know if you saw me post about that.
Brandon: I I did, actually. Yeah. Yeah. Sometimes it's sometimes it's a little bit rough. And and and analysis of data
Steve: It it drives me crazy that it hallucinates in addition. Yeah. Moving on.
Brandon: Yeah. So so it's not AI. It's, like, all just, like, built in the software, but the software we ended up using caused was, like like, an extreme amount of, like, painstaking manual work Yeah. To to make it work and stuff. So it was a it was a heavy lift, but but I think it's it's worth it in the end Of course.
Because it's it's it's one of those things. Like, I don't know if you believe I mean, it's it's a fact. You can if you don't believe in it, then that's on you. The theory of constraints Right. For business, which is the idea that, like, we all have a bottleneck in our business, which, by the way, is usually you.
But Yes. But numerically, there's also this bottleneck. And if you solve that one bottleneck, then then the business will grow until it reaches its And we find a new bottleneck constraint. Yeah. You will find a new bottleneck as you grow.
But turns out no matter who you are, no matter how good you think you're doing, there's some reason your business isn't performing at double the rate that it is right now. And whatever that reason is, that's your bottleneck. Right? So so that's kinda what this was built around is I I personally believe that entrepreneurs are really, really good problem solvers. Mhmm.
I think you're a good problem solver. I think I'm a pretty good problem solver. You give me a problem, I will, like, beat that problem to death, and I will find a way to fix it. The the problem, ironically, is that sometimes we don't solve the right problem. Sometimes we don't solve the root of the problem.
Right? So what happens is not usually that an entrepreneur is just trying to solve a problem over and over and over again, and they just keep on failing. It's usually that they think they solve the problem, and then that doesn't actually solve the root problem, and then the problems comes back. Right?
Steve: So that's that's Or the incremental gain.
Brandon: Or it's an incremental gain. Right? So so that's the the theory, the concept behind this is that's identified the biggest constraint in the business. We could do that through comparison of numbers, and then we have a better idea of what the actual problem to solve is, and then we can unlock more growth than we would with just focusing on whatever we wanna focus on, which I'm guilty of Mhmm.
Steve: Or
Brandon: whatever you're excited about. I'm guilty of that. But there's a there's a better way.
Steve: Yeah. And I'm asking this selfishly because I'm planning on doing the same exact thing. Right? Just in our own tool. Right?
Like,
Brandon: we
Steve: have the data in there. Like, here's people you know, here are the leads. Here's the follow-up. Here are the sales calls. What's the conversion rate?
Like, we're gonna start tracking, like, conversion ratios all across the board. Mhmm.
Brandon: For everyone,
Steve: we can just have it done automatically, like, on a monthly basis or daily basis in our system.
Brandon: Mhmm. So everyone can see how they compare. Sure. Yeah. That's awesome.
Like a like a ranking.
Steve: Yeah. Oh, we're gonna have rankings.
Brandon: Yeah. So That's cool. The best
Steve: way to get investors to compete is let them know they're not first.
Brandon: Sure. Sure. Super fair.
Steve: Yeah. And so, okay, so you you reached out, like, this is like a email campaign. You're just texting your clients. Like, how do you get people to to volunteer their data? Like, you know, best I've seen in this is, like, Robert Wensley.
He got everyone to agree to just upload their buyers list.
Brandon: Yeah. Which is which is pretty impressive, I I I will admit. Yeah. It it's it was just a game of us promoting it and super super simple thing where I basically explain and and you can see this. We'll we'll throw a link in the description where someone can go and and fill this out for themselves.
But you'll see a video on the page. It just kind of explains, like, what this is. And and, really, at the end of the day, I mean, I've it's Simon, I think it's Simon Sinek who basically says that people above anything else, they will do business with people that believe the same things as them. Yeah. Even more important than the other aspects of of your business.
Like, that's so that's, like, that's what we've always been big about. Like, you just seriously see the video, it's all just talking about, like, why do we believe this is important? And you know what? If you don't see the value in that, then then it's, like, it's pretty clear. And if you do, then you probably really do.
Right? And you could be someone listening to this where where it resonates, and you you totally get it. And if if so, like, you're the kind of person we want as a client. So that's why we do this kind of thing for you. And if not, then that's okay too.
Steve: So, we talked about things that surprised you. You know, for example, cold calling.
Brandon: Mhmm.
Steve: Very, low on the budget and very low in ROI.
Brandon: So what were
Steve: what was it, like, top three, five takeaways after completing this industry report?
Brandon: Oh, top three to five takeaways. There there's a there's a number of of takeaways that are that are pretty interesting. We we basically got, like, the p and l numbers Mhmm. For for each of the investors, which was just fascinating to see how it breaks out. I already told you, like, the fact that on average, investors are spending 35% of their budget on marketing and wholesalers, 39% Yeah.
Even higher. It surprises me.
Steve: It doesn't surprise me. Mhmm. It's a lot larger than it's supposed to be.
Brandon: Yeah. Because everybody talks about, you know, four or five x is kinda what they're targeting, and it's they're not Well, I think quite there on average.
Steve: Depending on what you look at, you know, which philosophy, which book you read. Right? 15 to 25%.
Brandon: Mhmm.
Steve: Typically, marketing should be 25% of your budget, but not investors. I don't know a lot of investors where it's 25. It's usually 35%.
Brandon: Yeah. Yeah. That yeah. That totally makes sense. And and but here's the difference between a typical business and investors is normally you have a cost of goods sold.
Mhmm. And investors don't really have a cost of goods sold. Like, you're looking at me funky. Well, let's just say you make a whole selfie. Mhmm.
So, normally, let's just say investing was, like, a a bit of a different business. Well, normally, you would you would make that 22,000 on average Mhmm. Fee. And then you would have to spend, like, some portion of that on delivering the product just like I have to do. I have to have my team that's actually, like like, out there delivering the product.
And and I would take off that $22, a a good chunk of it Mhmm. For that, which means the amount that I can put towards the marketing is less Mhmm. Versus wholesalers. Basically, your, like, cost of goods sold is essentially, like, transaction coordination. Well, I don't
Steve: count commission. I always count a commission as COGS.
Brandon: Sure. Okay. And and you could say that, but to to that point, I would, like, in my business, I would also pay commission. Mhmm. Like, most businesses would also pay commissions.
Right.
Steve: But I always put commissions in COGS. Sure.
Brandon: Sure. And you can like, you you could build the financial models like that. I guess what I'm I guess what I'm saying is it's it's not that you don't have cost to get sold because you could you could say those things are cost to get sold. It's that at at least at the very least, the cost to get sold is significantly lower than the average business. Right.
Because you don't actually have to deliver a product. Right.
Steve: There's no physical warehousing. There's no accounts receivables. It's just straight. Money came in. That's it.
There's no money came in, and then we had to pay for the delivery. We had to pay the contractor.
Brandon: None of that stuff.
Steve: It's just money came in.
Brandon: Yeah. Exactly. And that's just naturally going to because you look at a typical business, they're gonna spend 20% on that cost of goods sold, and they're going to spend, 10% on marketing. Right? And you look for investor, they might spend the the 20% from cost of goods sold and the 10% of marketing just on marketing.
Right? And that's where you get your Yeah. Your 30% from. Because the the other interesting thing is the margins in the industry were were decent. Mhmm.
Steve: Probably high.
Brandon: Yeah. They they ended up above 30% Mhmm. On average across the survey. That's not fully right based on the idea that there's also a lot of, like, owner operator acquisitions, dispositions, like, everything imaginable in the business. What are you paying for?
I don't think like like, I can tell you, I had a time in my business where my margins looked fantastic. Because you were paying yourself on on on this on the, the books. Yeah. Or I wasn't paying myself I wasn't paying myself what I should have been paying myself Right. On the books.
And if the IRS is listening to this, then Let me just ignore that.
Steve: Like an owner operator. You don't pay yourself the 10% acquisition
Brandon: and
Steve: the 5% disposition, whatever your figures are.
Brandon: Mhmm.
Steve: Right? You just say, oh, man. I made this much per deal. And that's the reason why, like, you your your your profitability always goes down.
Brandon: Sure. Yeah.
Steve: Because now you actually have to pay people.
Brandon: Yeah. Yeah. One of these times was after I went on your podcast for the first time. Mhmm. And I got so many leads.
It it was it was ridiculous, and my company was so small. Like, it wasn't really built to handle it. So, you know, I'd have people showing up on my calendar, and they'd be showing up to this meeting at, like, 09:30 at night that they booked six weeks in advance. And they're like, I thought your calendar was just broken. It's like, no.
No. This it's actually just booked out six weeks, and I actually just meet with people at 09:30 at night because that's what I did. Now if
Steve: what it took.
Brandon: What would I have to pay someone to do that? Probably a lot of money. I ended up replacing myself, like like, with probably nine or 10 people in that thing. Like, I like, right now, we're at a point where we have like like, the number of client facing people we have on the team is, like, seven or eight. And when we had half the number of clients we have now, it was just me doing that job.
So we literally have hired, like, four people Mhmm. For me. And I was also running the rest of the business at the same time. So my margins were fantastic. Mhmm.
And, also, I wasn't doing as good of a job as we can do when we actually have the right people in the right seats Yeah. And stuff like that. And that I like if you look at my replacement cost, there is probably, like, over $1,000,000 a year to, like, push myself out of, like, the seats. But it was worth it for our clients, and it was worth it for us as a company. Absolutely.
So that's that's like the asterisk with the margins. Mhmm. But but as the companies got larger, the the margins shrink down a little bit.
Steve: Sure.
Brandon: But overall margins were good. Another thing that was really insightful is deal spreads by exit. So so I I ended up doing this this analysis of looking at how deal spreads change based on the median home price in the market. And what I found is that the average wholesale fee in the market is roughly 6% of the median home price in that market minus $2,700. So there's, like, just simple back and napkin math that you could do kinda comparing your fee to what's what what fits the the line best across our clients.
The other thing that was really interesting is that the elasticity of the spread based on, home prices was higher for wholesales than it was for flips. So what I mean by that is with wholesale, if you're in a market that has a low median home price Mhmm. Your wholesale fee was small. Mhmm. As you got to these markets that had really high median home prices, the whole stuff you got larger, larger, larger.
I see. For flips, it was basically in those small markets, still pretty large fees. In those bigger markets, actually similar. It was not super elastic based on the home price.
Steve: I see.
Brandon: Whole tail actually ended up dead in between those two lines where it was like it was a little elastic, but not nearly as elastic as as wholesale. Right? So the the insight I took from that is at least based on that data, it seems to suggest that if you're in a market where they have median home prices higher, you can get away with wholesaling. But when you get into these, like, really low median home price markets, sometimes there's a lot more money in other exits compared to what there is in wholesaling. So I thought that was fascinating too.
It's very fascinating. Good to know. Yeah. That's it's it's good information to know. And then and then the last thing I would say that that was that was really insightful is just comparing all the marketing channels.
Mhmm. And and I can tell you, I I generally compare marketing channels. I think there's four things that matter about a marketing channel, but there's there's two that are maybe a little bit more important than the other ones. And those two are what kind of lead quality does it get you, and what kind of ROI does it get you? Because as as you and I talked about with cold call, it better be cheap because the lead quality is really bad.
Mhmm. Right? So are we willing to accept a bad lead quality if the ROI is really high? Yeah. Are we willing to accept badly quality if the ROI is really low?
Probably not. Right. Or a channel that has killer lead quality. Like I'll give you an extreme example. Let's just say, like, I give you leads, and I promise you 100% of them convert.
Mhmm. Like, they're already converted. Right? Maybe I already talked to them. They're already it's already done.
Just go
Steve: ahead and get the contract signed.
Brandon: Yeah. Yeah. What percentage of that revenue are you willing to pay for that lead? Like, probably really, really high.
Steve: Say 80% if I know, like, this is going to close, like, this guaranteed revenue?
Brandon: Yeah. Yeah. You'd you'd pay, like, 80%. What what is it 80%? Like, a one point something return.
Steve: One and a quarter ROI. Yeah. Point point 25%. That's it. 1.25.
Brandon: Yeah. Yeah. 1.25 x. Right? If I I told you you can get 1.25 x on your cold call, what would you say?
Like, that's gonna put me out of business. Right? So so if the lead quality is better, we're willing to pay more. We're willing to accept a lower return on investment. And, actually, I was able to model across the company.
So I modeled out their profit margin compared to their average leads per contract across their marketing channels and found that correlation absolutely true, that companies that have more inbound channels are able to operate at a higher at a higher margin with ultimately a lower return on investment in the marketing because their operational expense was smaller.
Steve: Right.
Brandon: So so, anyways, that's that's kind of two ways I would compare it. And and it was interesting to see how the different channels played out. TV was actually one of our lower return on investment inbound channels, but it was the best lead quality, ironically, which Right. Sort of makes sense because it it's a lot of friction for someone to get from a TV commercial to actually calling you.
Steve: Like, they
Brandon: have to remember that phone number, write it down, or they gotta, like, Google you or something. It's not like a super easy call to action. Yeah. After TV was PPC with Bateman Collective. It was the next highest, the next highest lead quality.
After that was PPC in general, which was actually significantly worse. Paper lead and direct mail all had about a similar number of leads per contract. The thing is PPC was actually a low performing channel from an ROI standpoint. It was, like, one point something return on investment on average for the industry across people who who who reported it versus direct mail and PPL were were higher. And then as we go towards the lower lead quality channels, cold call and text were both in the, like like, 50 plus leads per contract range.
Steve: Cold call
Brandon: was that 2.25 x that I talked about. Cold text was, like, four x, so significantly better than cold call was. Again, I don't know if lawsuits are part of their marketing spend or not Yeah. Or the risk that they're taking the liability. It's not super scalable anymore.
All kinds of reasons not to love Coltex despite how it did pretty well in the survey. Right. But that's that's kind of what we learned generally about marketing channels, which I which I thought was pretty pretty fascinating overall just to see how they're comparing for Yeah.
Steve: It's it's interesting. Very interesting information, or at least for you and me.
Brandon: Yeah. Again, if you're if you're not a nerd, maybe this is just really boring stuff for you.
Steve: But yeah. So we'll put a link in the description for you guys to go click on it so that you guys can get access to it. You're gonna have to participate. Right?
Brandon: Yep. You participate. You submit your numbers, and then we will send you a personalized report that shows your numbers next to other companies' numbers so it's easy for you to identify where you're doing well and where you're doing poorly.
Steve: Yeah. And and there's no such thing as, like, bad information. It's just information and what you do with it.
Brandon: 100%. Yeah. It's like I had a number of situations recently in my business where, like, I've I've, like, heard some bad news, and then I think about it after. And I'm like, I feel bad about this bad news. And then I realized, like, before I heard it, it was still true.
Mhmm. Usually, it's stuff that's, like, been a problem for, like, a year, and I just found out about it. Right. And now that I know about it, that's actually the good news. Like, now I can actually fix this problem.
I didn't know about this problem before. But for some reason, like, finding out about it feels like the painful part.
Steve: Well, I mean, I think of, like, a worst case scenario. Right? Like, if you were to find out your spouse has been cheating on you, like, do you do you rather not have known?
Brandon: Sure. Sure. Very fair point.
Steve: Right? Like, it's an awful, awful scenario, but, like, Yeah.
Brandon: That that Andy guy that got caught in the jumbotron, like, are you trying to say that his wife should be grateful, Steve?
Steve: Ignorance is not bliss. I don't believe in those situations.
Brandon: I think ignorance is bliss. Should it be or not? It's a different question, but I think it often is.
Steve: Okay. Fine. Ignorance is bliss, but would you choose that? Would you will feel like you give him the choice?
Brandon: It's it's interesting when you even think about that because there's, like, there there were some, like, thought experiments done where where I can't remember where this came from, but they basically, someone would ask people, like, they've done this in monkeys. Like, they can actually, like, trigger, like, the bliss part of the brain. Like, make someone, like, feel bliss. Mhmm. And so they so they ask, like, humans, like, what will do you want me to do that?
And it's such an interesting thing because, like, most of what we do is, like, we're just kinda chasing this, like, this good feeling. But if you ask somebody, like, okay. So I could just hook you up to this machine for the rest of your life, and you'll just feel blissful forever. Do you want that? And the answer is generally no.
Yeah. I don't want that because it's not actually what you're chasing.
Steve: Part of the journey. Sure. And then even, like, what was it? You know, not it's not a documentary. Right?
I mean, The Matrix is, like, really fiction, but, like, they talked about, like, the humans rejected it because, like, they were always happy. They couldn't stay in that machine.
Brandon: Yeah. That's interesting.
Steve: Okay. So then we talked about the data. And let's talk about, did we miss anything as far as, like, using, AI to w Leaflow?
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Brandon: Really, the yeah. What what I said about more data, using it better is the big thing. And I feel like I've been, like, standing on top of this, like, giant soapbox with a megaphone about this for, like, five years, and still, like, nobody does it except for us. We see our competitors, like, try to do it sometimes, and then they just, like, miss, like, critical pieces Right. That make it work.
But it's I mean, if I started
Steve: a PPC company, I'd do exactly what you said. It makes total sense to me.
Brandon: It it it does make sense. And and and here's the thing. So Google's actually like like I already told you, like, the the background of of bid strategy and how that all went. Google's moving more this direction. If you're following PPC news, you probably know that they announced AI Max recently.
AI Max is a new type of campaign where they're moving towards keyword list campaigns. Mhmm. What think about, like, what the what the concept of keyword list campaigns means. It means you have this machine where it's trying to generate leads for you that are the 2% of sellers that are actually motivated sellers. Yet you can't tell it what you wanna target and what you don't wanna target.
How are you gonna work in in those in that kind of game? And then you just have to have that modern strategy of Elaborate
Steve: on that. Like, I don't understand what that means.
Brandon: So, like, keyword list advertising or
Steve: Like, so there's, like so keyword list. Right? For me, it's just, like, here are the keywords that we want. Right? Like, here's a keyword like, here's a campaign.
Here are all the keywords I want that campaign. Right? So but, like, for them to do it, what does it mean for Google to pick the keyword list?
Brandon: So it means that their system decides what you target Mhmm. Based on what you say your goal is.
Steve: So here's what here's what I want, and they're gonna come with a keyword list.
Brandon: Yeah. And it doesn't even function based on keywords. It just functions based on Intent. Intent, which is actually really important piece of it when Google's moving more towards AI as well. And search queries don't look like they used to.
Right? Think of how different you use, like, a a large language model compared to how you use a search engine. Anymore. Yeah. I still like fact check with Google because I'm a little scared of, you know, the crazy stuff that that that Chats GBT comes up with.
But the I guess what I'm saying is the way that you search there is really different. Like, you're not gonna type into Google, like like, please please tell me this or something. Right? You're just gonna search The way
Steve: you interface with it, interact with it.
Brandon: Yeah. It's way different. Right? So because the way that people are searching is changing, keywords get even harder because now we're gonna have prompts that are significantly more words. Mhmm.
And, like, your your keyword could fall in someone's thousand word prompt and not actually be super relevant just because, like, they had data somewhere that that said that. So the the idea is that Google's getting better at predicting who's your customer and who's not your customer. And in order for that to work, you have to feed it that data about who your customer is and who your customer isn't. Right. And then for to get it to work really, really well, you need to have more data than everybody else does about those things.
And this is where the gap between the companies that are doing this on the highest level and the companies that are doing this on the lower level is kind of widening as Google going more and more that direction. And now you still can do it the other way, but I can tell you the strategy that we're using is already working better today, and it's future proof. So that's the biggest difference.
Steve: And are you seeing benefits right now with AI Max?
Brandon: So AI Max itself is pretty new in testing. I think it was, like, less than a month ago that it tested or that that Google launched it. And we have to get, like, we have to, like, use our relationship with Google to get beta tests for our clients individually. Yeah. So to say that it's, like, good or not, would be hard.
We have some tests going on. I've seen some early data. The data I've seen has been negative, but it's been the kind of thing that is is, like, fixable in early stage. Yeah. Right?
So I can't comment on it too much, except all I can say is is that we have to zoom out and look beyond just today and what's happening right now and realize, like, the agenda that Google has. And AI Max is, like, a really, really clear sign of where they're wanting to go. And right now, it's like, oh, you know what? You can use this if you want to.
Steve: Mhmm.
Brandon: Opt into this, and, eventually, it'll be give me your website, and we'll send you traffic. And Yeah. I mean that's it.
Steve: I use Google Suite. That's what work Works Workplace One.
Brandon: Mhmm. And they
Steve: keep upgrading it. And, like, do you want Gemini? Like, no. I don't want Gemini. Do you want Gemini?
No. You want Gemini? No. And then at the end, it's like, hey. You're you're you're taking Gemini, and you're paying more per user.
Brandon: Right? Yeah. They're they're gonna have their way Yeah. Eventually.
Steve: Because I think when I started using Google Suite, it was, like, $7.50 per user per month. Mhmm. Right? And then, And
Brandon: it was $5 for me. I don't even wanna know what it is now.
Steve: Yeah. So, well, I'm telling you. It's 16 and change per user
Brandon: Yeah. It's more.
Steve: It's a lot more. Per month. And that we get to use their AI tool, which I don't want. Yeah. Right?
Like, I haven't used in Google Docs. I have not used in Google Sheets. I'm not using any emails. Right? It's I I I Google something, and now it's, like, giving me, like, whatever.
You know? I was like, I didn't want that. Right? Yeah. It's just it's in your face.
And I'm talking about, like, Googling, like, restaurants. This is not, like, using Google. I was like, I don't use Google anymore. Yeah. And the other thing too is, like, the Facebook.
Like, Zuckerberg has said the same thing. Mhmm. Right? It's like, we don't want you to go in there and, like, create your own campaigns and this and that. We want you to just tell us what's your goal
Brandon: Mhmm. And
Steve: then we'll create the ads for you.
Brandon: Yep. It's it's a it's a different game. Yeah. I I saw a commercial from Salesforce where where it said, if if AI is the wild west, does that mean that data is the do gold? And I thought it was insightful because, yes.
Yes. I think is the is the answer to that. Like, that's that's what it comes down to. If you have if you have more data to find the right people, then then you could win that game.
Steve: Right. So, yeah, I think that's the direction we're going. And another thing is, again, like, we hear more and more people talking about, like, so and so, is is looking to sell their grandma's looking to sell their house. And Susie Susie's not a modern name. It was a, a modern name.
You know? Whatever. Like, some something spelled really weird with, like Yeah.
Brandon: Like, multiple
Steve: Well, Sofia and Olivia, that seems to be the most common name. So I'm like, I'll make it friends. Alright. So Sofia jumps on a computer Yeah. And, goes to chat GBT.
Like, sell my house for cash or whatever. And then they get some information, and then they pass it along. And they call it, and then, like, my grandma wants to sell a house for cash.
Brandon: Mhmm. But
Steve: more and more, it's coming through large language models, whether it's chat g p t or clod or grok or whatever. Yeah. Isn't and I don't know. I haven't done any research into this. For me, that just seems like it's just SEO that's just in ChatGPT.
Like, ChatGPT is not creating its own thing. It's just scraping what's on the Internet.
Brandon: Sure.
Steve: Yeah. So it's just search engine optimization showing up in chat j p t, unless I'm crazy.
Brandon: You're you're, like, 90% right. Okay. There's there's, like, some things that are a little different. Like like, an example is YouTube's pretty important if you wanna show up in a language model because YouTube's, like, the the place where a lot of language models are getting, like, their training data. Right?
Because it's, like, one of the biggest open source, not really, like, owned by anyone Mhmm. Sources of information about things. Right? So so, like, there's little things like that where, like, maybe language model wouldn't find you somewhere else. Mhmm.
But you're you're absolutely right. A lot of the same signals that are that are giving trust for, for SEO are are going right into language models. Like, we have a fair number of leads that come to us and say, well, I JBPT said you're the best. Mhmm. It's like, okay.
I I don't know where exactly you got that from, but, like, it sure knows a lot about my company when I when I, like
Steve: Well, it's just kinda like if you remember Siri. Right? Mhmm.
Brandon: Used
Steve: to scrape from Yelp.
Brandon: Mhmm. Right?
Steve: If you wanna do all on Siri, we just had to do all on Yelp.
Brandon: Yeah. And a lot of the signals are the same. Right? Because you think, what is what is Google trying to do when it gives information? It wants to find the most authoritative, relevant result.
Steve: It used to.
Brandon: It still it still care do you think Google doesn't care about that anymore? I don't
Steve: think it's a I don't think it's a crap about user experience anymore. Right, like because I think they're just they are the okay. So you look at our space.
Brandon: Mhmm.
Steve: So and so promotes this company. So and so promotes that company.
Brandon: Mhmm. Are they
Steve: promoting that company because they think it's the best company? Are they promoting that company because they get paid by affiliates? Sure. Right? Like, does this influencer actually care about me, the user, or does influencer care about the the affiliate revenue?
Brandon: Yeah. And that's that's I don't know. That's always yeah. You you don't know. You don't know.
Steve: It's it's true. I pride myself on only promoting products that I use. Right? Mhmm. To my detriment.
Brandon: Yeah. You could make more money if you wanted to do it the other way.
Steve: Yeah. If I just completely sold my soul, I'd make way more money in affiliates. Right?
Brandon: Yeah.
Steve: And so with Google, I don't think they care about the user experience. I think they used to care about the user experience. I think now they care about, like, plugging you into this Google tool or that Google tool or this or that. Right? Like, PPC used to be three on the top, 10 on the side.
They were all yellow backgrounds. Yeah. You knew it was paid ads.
Brandon: Now you need, like, a magnifying glass to figure out if it's a paid ad or not. Yeah. So so I I'm with you, although I don't think it's 100% that way. Right? Because if that was true, then Google would say, well, you'll get better SEO results if you spend with us on paid ads.
Mhmm. And it's not it's not really true. It doesn't work that way.
Steve: That's not true. Correct.
Brandon: But do they do they care about the money? Yeah. I mean, a good example of this is in PPC. They care about quality score. Mhmm.
So quality score is
Steve: But do they care about the quality score because of the user experience or because they wanted you to spend as much money as possible?
Brandon: It's it's I think I think quality score is them showing that they care equally about the things. So so I I recently did a did a study across a bunch of data that we had, and we broke out our clients' results by quality score. Mhmm. Which is interesting analysis that I've never done before. And what we found is the higher the quality score, actually, the cheaper the cost per contract across those contracts, mostly because cost per click went went significantly down.
And if you think of, like, how Google does that, they're basically saying if you have a higher quality score Mhmm. That to us means that there's a better user experience.
Steve: Right. Right?
Brandon: Because they're looking at the landing page experience. They're looking at the ad relevance. They're looking at the expected CTR. The expected CTR is kinda one that they care about
Steve: Right.
Brandon: More for them than the user. Mhmm. But the other two are are super for the user. Yeah. So what they do is they will actually charge so if if if you advertise on Google and you have a bad user experience that you're creating for somebody on Google, they will prioritize getting money over that.
Right? So they will say, you know what? If you're willing to pay us enough money, we'll still we'll still show your ad.
Steve: Well, they will, though. Right? Like, if I have a five quality score and you have an eight quality score, they'll show my ad and I'm willing to spend enough.
Brandon: Yeah. Exactly. So so that's where, like, do they prioritize the money? Yes. Because if your quality score is lower, will they still show you your ad?
Absolutely. But you've gotta pay more money than I do. Right.
Steve: So my point is that
Brandon: the fact that they actually make you pay more money than I do and or that they they make they allow me to pay less money because my quality score is better means that, like, they're actually accepting less revenue for you. Because I create a better user experience.
Steve: Right. So that you can spend more money there profitably. Oh, sure.
Brandon: Yeah. That that that'll definitely Right.
Steve: In the long run, it's like Brandon will spend more money because he gets a better ROI.
Brandon: 100%. It goes it goes to their bottom line eventually. Right? Yeah. Even user experience goes to the bottom line eventually where like, if they're if they're prioritizing user experience at least a little bit, then hopefully people don't stop using Google.
Yeah. That's the goal.
Steve: Yeah. Like, as long as you can spend the whatever they can do to get you to spend more money, I think is their priority.
Brandon: Yeah. They they used to have, like, they started with their motto or whatever. They called me, like, don't be evil, and then and then they they took that away. Yeah.
Steve: Yeah. They just got rid of the first word because it was constraining the the
Brandon: the It's hard to put on a bumper sticker if it's don't be evil. The be evil is just easier. It's easier.
Steve: Only seven six characters and a and a space in between. Yeah. So alright. So then we talked about that. Let's see what else was there.
Anything else we haven't touched on? Because, like, I wanted to really hit on, like, what's changed and what people need to pay attention to. Right? And and as far as digital marketing goes. Have we covered everything?
Brandon: We we've covered a lot of stuff. I mean, we could we could always go super deep. Yeah. Honestly, everybody's always pretending like everything's changing super fast. I'd say the stuff the content we recorded a year ago about all the nitty gritty of PPC, I think it's all still really true.
The only thing I'd add some additional information on is I spent a little time, like, on my way here kind of thinking about, like, how I I feel empathy for the average investor who doesn't know what to do about their PPC. Mhmm. And it's not working for whatever reason. I mean, how many people do you know who you've heard say, like, PPC is not working for me, and I'm spending too much money on it, and the cost per deal is too high, and the ROI is too low, and the leads are horrible and, like, every possible thing. And it's it's true for a lot of marketing channels too.
And it's hard because you just you just don't know, like, everything about the channel. You don't know how how it works. And and we've I've created all this content to try to, like, help bridge that gap a little bit, but the reality is, like, still if somebody wants to con you, they can con you. Mhmm. More likely than not.
Just like I could be conned into a real estate investment, probably.
Steve: Mhmm.
Brandon: Because even though I'm, like, in this industry, I still I still might not know, like, someone who really knows what I'm talking about, someone that doesn't. So, so so I thought a little bit about, like, how how do you make these kinds of decisions? And I came up with what I think is important to me. Sure. What's important?
It's have you ever heard of, like, the the competence and character mindset for employees?
Steve: Maybe. Let's go ahead and jump into it.
Brandon: The idea being competence and character are, like, the two things you wanna look for Yeah. In an employee. Okay. I think, Simon Sinek has a video on this where he talks about, like, trust
Steve: versus confidence. Yeah. For the seal. Yeah. Who do you want?
You want a guy that you can trust? Yeah. Or a guy as good as a job.
Brandon: Yeah. And I can tell you, like, in my company, if somebody's not good at their job, we make a plan to get them good at their job. Mhmm. If we can't trust somebody, they're gone immediately. Right?
It's the only times that we, like, fire somebody Like the CEO. Really, really quick.
Steve: Mitch Sharma's CEO.
Brandon: Oh, sure. Yeah. I think you got fired, didn't
Steve: he? Resigned. Yeah. Who knows if he would've stuck around if he didn't resign, but he resigned.
Brandon: Yeah. You know, safe face, I guess. Yeah. So so, anyways, both both those things are really important, though. Mhmm.
So on the on the idea of competence, right, I feel like this is what most people are just looking for Mhmm. But they get misled a lot. So what what we started using internally is we have this, like, idea of, like, we're looking for level three marketers. Mhmm. So to explain to you what level three marketers are, level one marketer basically says something like this.
Like, I don't know everything. I am a student of marketing. Everywhere around me are opportunities to learn, and I'm gonna become the best in the world at this. Right? That that's, like, that's how people start.
Right? A level two marketer says, like, I get the best results. I get consistent results. I get better results than everybody else. And then a level three marketer says, I am a student of marketing all around me are opportunities to learn.
I'm going to become the best marketer in the world. Right? And if if you think, like, what's the difference between a level one and a level three marketer? It's it's just track record. Mhmm.
But who's the person that convinces people to to work with them? It's level two marketer usually. Right? Because there's like I don't I don't know if you've I mean, you know the concept of, like, the more you know, the more you know you don't know. Mhmm.
And if that's not true, then something might be really grown. Right. There's a there's this quote from, from Henry Ford that I like. He says, many a man who's supposed to have ten years experience really has one year's experience repeated 10 times.
Steve: Right.
Brandon: And I think that's the level two marketer.
Steve: So what does the level two marketer say again?
Brandon: I get the best results. I get the most consistent results. I know exactly what I'm doing.
Steve: Okay. So this is a this is the Dunning Kruger. Right?
Brandon: Tell tell me more about that. I've heard the I've heard, like, the phrase before, but I couldn't tell you exactly what it is.
Steve: Dunning Kruger. Right? So you draw a chart. Right? Your confidence
Brandon: Mhmm.
Steve: And, and skill level, right, over time is, like, you I think it's confidence and skill. Right? So initially, you get some results, and you get, like, this confidence. Mhmm.
Brandon: And, like,
Steve: you think you're king of the world. And really what happened is that you haven't experienced adversity yet. And then this is when you become a guru, by the way. Right? And you crash.
Brandon: Mhmm.
Steve: Right? Your skill improves,
Brandon: where
Steve: your confidence crashes.
Brandon: Mhmm.
Steve: And then now after it crashes, now it starts to gain somewhat linearly. Right? So you have, like, this exponential growth, and that's when you think you know everything. And that's when you start selling courses. You start you know, people start paying you money because you're loud about the success you've had.
Brandon: Mhmm. When in
Steve: reality, you don't know anything. You know you've had some you've had a taste of success. Mhmm. But you haven't had a taste of failure, and you have all this irrational confidence, which is, like, a good thing to have to some degree. But you also need to have some humility, and you don't have that humility yet.
Brandon: Yeah. I think I think the real differ like, you you you're you're explaining exactly exactly what I'm getting at. And another way The
Steve: other way we look at that also, just real quick before we transition back, is that the the top where, you know, like, this is where you get the Lambo, right, and everything else
Brandon: Mhmm.
Steve: Is, we call that that's that's when you're, on the top of Mount Stupid.
Brandon: That's that's really funny. I haven't heard I haven't heard that exact example. Yeah. I think the the way that I, the way that I think about it is a a level one marketer has humility. Mhmm.
A level two marketer is confidence. A A level three marketer is confidence and humility. And that's the, you know, that's the difference. Right? And it's so easy to think that, like, you know, one versus like like, confidence and humility, it's it's easy to think of them as, like like, mutually exclusive concepts, but but they're not really.
Like, you can you could be really confident and really humble at the same time. Right? So that's that's something I really believe. And and when I see people, like, making decisions where they end up coming to us with a ton of wasted money, it's usually the level two marketers Mhmm. They have
Steve: to be really worried about. Right? Convince them.
Brandon: That that convinced them. Right? So and and sometimes we also see people in our sales process get turned off when they're like, what's my cost per lead gonna be? And we're like, I don't know. Probably, like, somewhere in this range.
It depends on these different factors, and they go to someone else and the other person's like, oh, it'll be this. Mhmm. Does that mean that that person knows more than we do? Yeah. It it might just mean that they know less.
Mhmm. Right? So so that's that's one one important thing to to think about.
Steve: So it's like I mean, looking at our lives. Right?
Brandon: Like, when
Steve: I was 15, I knew everything. Right?
Brandon: And Sure. Sure. A lot of 15 year olds know everything. Right.
Steve: And I got my daughter who's 14, and we had a conversation. I was like, look. I believe that you believe you know everything. I was once like you.
Brandon: That's so funny.
Steve: You're just gonna have to have a little faith
Brandon: Mhmm. That I've
Steve: been on this planet thirty years longer than you, and I know a few things that you haven't experienced yet.
Brandon: Sure. Sure. Right? Yeah. The level two
Steve: could just be the teenager.
Brandon: Sure. Absolutely. And there's lots of those, like, teenage marketers. And and, like, look, the reality is we all act different in every like, I have, like, moments of the day where I'm level two marketer, and I have levels moments of the day where I'm a level three marketer. Yeah.
But that's that's the biggest thing I would look for. And then the other part is is character. Mhmm. And, you know, we we were talking about capitalism before. Mhmm.
This this wonderful thing in capitalism, which is, like, not a perfect system, but by far
Steve: the best
Brandon: we have. Yeah.
Steve: Than the alternatives.
Brandon: Unless you wanna fight me on that. You know, I'm not trying to get too political here, but pretty pretty decent system, pretty good invisible hand, making sure things work out. Yeah. So so all is well with capitalism. Here's where it's it it's not always perfect is sometimes businesses can do things that like, if capitalism worked perfectly, then everything I can do to be more profitable as a company is also something that benefits my employees and also something I bet that benefits my clients.
Mhmm. It doesn't always work that way. Right? And so so as as an agency, just a little bit of insight into, like, the agency model, how it works. Agencies grow two ways.
Number one, you get more clients.
Steve: Mhmm.
Brandon: Number two, you keep those clients longer. Those The third way.
Steve: What's that? Charge them more.
Brandon: Sure. Sure. Okay. So so, yeah, number one I could say is, like, get more get more, like, revenue.
Steve: Okay. One one is getting more clients. Number two is charging more.
Brandon: Sure. Sure. One of these getting longer. Yeah. I guess the way we've the way we measure it, like, how much you charge them as part of the clients because we measure, like, the the MRR.
Anyways, there yeah. Sorry. Yeah.
Steve: It's being difficult.
Brandon: Super fair. So you could look you could look at it that way. The but but either way you look at it, there's there's these different things that you do to create value. Right? Yeah.
And and this is something that I have to be, like, extremely clear about in in in our company meetings where like like, one thing I just shared in our last company meeting is our retention has been awesome recently. Right? Retention is not the goal. Retention is the way that we measure the goal. The goal is that we provide an impact to our clients.
Mhmm. Retention is the number that we're going to measure that's gonna tell us, are we doing a good job of doing that or not? That makes sense. It's it's super basic. Right?
Because we're trying to get around the the ideas of capitalism. But where I see things start to go sideways is where companies start to do things that are actually not in the best interest of clients Mhmm. But they are in the best interest of the company. Right? So if we were to, like, artificially get better retention through doing something that's not actually better for our clients, that's where things start to to go south.
And there and there's all kinds of different examples of that. Like, one one example is, like, set it and forget it
Steve: Mhmm.
Brandon: Agencies where you're just kinda like like I can tell you the easiest part of a marketing campaign is getting it set up. The really hard part is doing whatever it takes to make it work Mhmm. After it's set up and all that tweaking and all that stuff. Could could my company be more profitable today if we just, like, set up all our clients and then we just kinda let them run on autopilot until they eventually leave? Mhmm.
Totally. Oh, especially with SEO where it's gonna take, like, a year to get a measurable result anyways. We could just do nothing Right. And just collect the revenue for the year. That's how clients feel.
And agencies do that. Yeah. Yeah. And sometimes clients feel that way even if we are doing lots of stuff. So We're always what you do.
Steve: That's how clients feel.
Brandon: It's it's on us to demonstrate the value. Right? That's that's an Us thing. Another example of this is, and I think I've I've shared this before with you is, like, I'm really not cool with my agencies don't give access to the accounts to to their to their clients. It's one of those things.
It's like it's like you telling me that you're gonna do, like, an outsourced sales product for me. Like, oh, just give me all of your leads, and and I'll do the sales. Except, no. You're not allowed in your CRM. And if you ever leave me, I'm gonna take your CRM and all the data with me, and you're gonna be left with nothing.
If you got me just to, like, agree to that because I'm stupid, You would have me basically in, like, a choke hold Mhmm. To continue working with your company to do the sales because, like, over time, all that data that you're generating in the CRM is really, really valuable data. And it just, and and I wouldn't know. So I see people, like, getting in those kinds of relationships with agencies where they don't realize, like, a year down the road, two years down the road, like, what they signed, and they don't realize they don't actually they they're not allowed to log in to their CRM. They're not allowed to keep the data in their CRM.
So if they ever make a change, then it's gonna be really, like, like, detrimental to them.
Steve: Yeah. What, so for a minute, we were doing sales agency stuff. We stopped. But that was our competitive advantage. It was crazy to me.
I was like, you and I will be in a CRM together.
Brandon: Transparency. You would have thought
Steve: everything that we do. You could log in at any time. You can listen to every call.
Brandon: Yeah. Because how do I know? Like, because people say, like, you'll go by the numbers, but, like, okay. If you're closing well, but I see that you no showed, like, 50% of the meetings, still not okay. Right?
And I should be able to see that.
Steve: Well, then I got complaints. Like, hey. Like, I jumped on. I listened to the call. Like, this call sucks.
Like, sorry. Like, let's we'll we'll we'll listen to the call now, and then we'll make sure whatever. Right?
Brandon: Mhmm.
Steve: But, like, it was crazy to me that when I did my tone in this world, and it's not I'm not in this world anymore, was that nobody else believed in transparency. Like, sales agencies was just, like, eating the CRM, like, legit black box. Put the lead in. We'll let we'll we'll let you know the revenue.
Brandon: Yeah.
Steve: Absolutely insane.
Brandon: Yeah. That's that's actually crazy because I've never worked at a company like that. So I didn't I used that example as, like, an outlandish thing that, like, probably nobody does this, but, like, it would be as bad as this, but that's crazy. That's actually a thing Oh, yeah. Like that happens.
Steve: We were getting, opportunities because people I was like like, why should we use you? It's like, well, we'll share the CRM logins. It's yours.
Brandon: And there's there's, like, multiple elements of it. Like like, one thing is if they were to ever leave, you can't, like, just hold that over them. Right. Right? Because that's like you're like you know, CRM is, like, one of the most valuable things that you're generating.
The data in there. Yeah. It's it's really, really valuable. The the other component is transparency. Mhmm.
Like like you were saying, like and and I think sometimes people are afraid that they'll be held accountable, but I think I think when you create that really good transparent relationship, like, we make mistakes for our clients, and our clients know that we make mistakes for them from time to time. And and that's okay because we have an open dialogue. We have an open conversation about it. There's a there's a, like, level of mistakes that's acceptable. I've never been able to remove human error completely from every single thing that we do, and and I think that transparency is really important.
Yeah. So so that that's, like, another example. I mean, I could think of infinite examples. Another another really big one, that we keep on seeing pop up for, like, five years is guarantees. I think you wanna be, like, kinda careful about guarantees.
It's it's one of those things where it can go one of two ways. So a lot of the companies so so the reason companies do this is they say, well, Steve, you're worried that you might not get results, so I'm going to guarantee to you that you're going to get this result. The really tough thing is a lot of the things that contribute to that result happening are out of their control Mhmm. Usually. Right?
So can they even really guarantee that? And and it goes one of two ways. The first way is they're, like, often I'll have, like, fine print. Right? So you'll think, like, this is this is solid.
Right? Like, I'm the result is guaranteed. I must get the results, but, really, there's fine print that, like, all these things need to happen. Like, you have to have evidence that you've done all these things and all this stuff in order for the guarantee to work. Right?
So I sell you in on the idea that there's gonna be a guarantee, and then I never actually fulfill on on that thing. Or at most, if I will fall on that thing, you're still gonna be out all your ad spend. Yeah. And, you know, I I might I'm basically knocking off 15% off the top if you don't get the results you want. Or the other way that it goes is maybe I do actually honor those guarantees, but you have to think.
Like, okay. So if if one agency is actually honoring guarantees and they have these these guarantees, and another agency isn't, how is it possible that that one agency can do that? Mhmm. It's one of those things like, have you ever heard somebody say that a listing agent is aligned with the seller because if they sell the house for more, they'll make a bigger commission?
Steve: I'm filming this video for the
Brandon: man himself, mister Ian Ross. So Guy Crafts is the guy's the best person in sales I've ever seen. I've invested elsewhere, and I haven't got the same results. I've gone from being a seller, making 5 k a month, to being a hybrid role, making 11 k a month, to now be four months down the line from 5 k to on a closing opportunity, inbound, full calendar with the best opportunity, the best offer in my space. OTE is around 20 k a month from month two.
Steve: So I've
Brandon: gone from 5 k to 20 k. If that's not a return on your investment, I don't know what it is, man. If you're a salesperson, you don't invest in sales training, you're gonna get left behind because your job is to be better at sales, and sales training directly makes you more money. If you like what
Steve: you just heard and would like similar types of success, text close to 33777, and we'll see if you qualify to join objection proof selling. We're taking good sales reps, and we're making them objection proof. Yeah. It's definitely a misnomer or not misnomer. It's major fallacy.
Brandon: Sure. I expected you to say that. Like, 1% of me was like, Steve's gonna think that's true, but no. It's it's it's not true. Right?
Because I I can Like It's not true at all. I might have to work 300% harder to sell your house for 5% more. Mhmm. And am I gonna do that? No.
I'm just gonna find, like, five other houses that I can I'm just gonna get the commission. Yeah. I'm just gonna get the commission. I'm gonna get 90% of the commission with 20% of the work, and I'm just gonna move
Steve: on and do more. I've heard realtors say it. It's like, no. That's not true. Like, that has not been my experience.
Like, get the contract signed, done, move on. Yeah. Fighting for the extra $10,000 for the homeowner.
Brandon: No. No. They're they're not. But how much does that mean to the homeowner? It it could mean a ton.
Right? That that that's that's like especially compared to their equity. They could they could double how much
Steve: they're Yeah.
Brandon: They're getting paid out based on the agent working 300% harder, but they're not the agents agents are not gonna get paid more. So the it's one of those kinds of things. Like, we're they the the guarantee kinda sounds good, but, like, when you really think about it, how is the company doing that? Well, what happens is usually the way that those companies work is they have, like, like, a mediocre kind of product, and then they sell it at a premium price. Mhmm.
So then they can refund a good portion of their clients. Interesting. And and they can actually make it they can actually make it through that. Right? Because that's the only way to to make it possible.
And and the way those performance based marketing agencies typically work is kind of like the realtor that promises to you that, like, I guarantee you I'm gonna sell the house. Mhmm. And I mean, think there's there's a local company here. Right? That, like, guarantees that it'll be sold in seventy two hours.
Steve: Well, they're not so big anymore. No. And after that,
Brandon: that's true that the market shifted a little bit, but, like, how can you do that? You just, you know, you just sell it for less. Is that in the best interest of everybody? Yeah. No.
But does it sound better? Mhmm. Yes. So it's I would say, like, those are the big things you wanna avoid is is and I would add I would add one fourth one, and it and that is, like, again, this is something that sounds one way and is the other way. Just avoid cheap, like, at at all costs, like like, the cheap agency.
It's just you have to think, like, how are they going to like, I I went to an agency mastermind actually last week. It's the first one I ever been to.
Steve: Mhmm. You know
Brandon: what I learned? Is that on average, my team members are paid double what agencies or team members are typically paid across all these different industries. Right? And, like, the the level of work we're doing, I learned it's not just, like, really good in the real estate investment space. Like, it's really good in, like, the agency space in general across verticals.
Yeah. And a lot of that just comes down to, like, being able to pay people more. Right? So if we were charging half as much, could we continue to to deliver the same thing? Like, we couldn't.
Right? Like, something has to give for for that to be true. And it's kind of like if you think of the agency as responsible for managing the ad spend and the management fee, it's it's a mismanagement of spend to put a lot towards the ad spend, but not actually properly manage that. So, anyways, I would say cheap guarantees, not having access to your account and transparency. And what was the other one?
Like, set and forget it. Like, those are, like, the big things from a character standpoint Yeah.
Steve: Where
Brandon: if you see an agency that's that's doing that, it's it's one of those things where I would say just just be careful about that. And what you wanna do is just work with people that you trust, and it's really important that they're competent. And all those things could be true, like, even if they're they're not competent. Like, those are examples of things that, like, look better for the the agency's bottom line, but they don't actually work better for everybody involved. Yeah.
Steve: It's funny because, you know, I've done a lot of business with the guarantees. You know, your home's gonna guarantee where I'll buy it. Maybe a lot of money because I bought a lot of houses. And then, the other one, in the last few years is I had the, our coaching programs. Like, oh, let's just offer a guarantee.
Right? Like, you know, Alex from Moses says offer a guarantee, they're fine. We'll offer a guarantee.
Brandon: Sure. Right?
Steve: And so we offered a guarantee, and we had a fine print.
Brandon: You know what the
Steve: fine print was on the mentorship? It's like, I guarantee you'll make an extra $100,000 in the next six months. Right?
Brandon: Mhmm.
Steve: And it was 25,000 to work with me for the year. And the guarantee and the the requirement was you had to make it to 50 out of the 52 scheduled one on ones.
Brandon: Mhmm. Right? What was
Steve: the one on ones? Group coaching calls.
Brandon: You had
Steve: to make it to 50 out of 52. Like, you have to be intentional. Right? The second thing is the homework that I assigned last week, you have to get done by the next one.
Brandon: Mhmm.
Steve: Those are the only two requirements. But if you do everything I tell you to do for fifty weeks out of the year Sir. There's no way you don't make an extra 100,000 in the next twelve months.
Brandon: Mhmm.
Steve: Right? So, like, I I put that in place. And it's like, yeah.
Brandon: If they don't make
Steve: an extra 100,000, I'll give them 25,000 back. If they did everything I told them to
Brandon: do Mhmm. And it
Steve: didn't work, like, here. Take your money back.
Brandon: Yep. But that
Steve: was the that that was the guarantee.
Brandon: And and to be clear, I'm not, like, against guarantees in general. I think it's different for a coaching company than it is for an agency Yeah. Because the coaching company largely like like, you're running those weekly calls anyways if there's more people showing up. Mhmm. It's it's not you're not incurring massive extra costs, like, per person.
Steve: Right.
Brandon: If you look at an agency, if they're running right, they actually should be incurring massive costs per client. Right? So they should be going out on a limb in order to make that possible. And what you want is not like like another way to think of an agency that's running on performance is, like, imagine I'm just like a contractor and I come to you and I say, well, Steve, you you're your wholesaling company. Just send me the leads and I'll close them for you.
Mhmm. And I just get paid based on what I closed. Are we aligned? Yes. Until I find, like, 20 other companies, I just start cherry picking leads.
Right? That's basically what agencies do is they start cherry picking clients where, like because sometimes you work for a client, and you'll do everything. And you'll go really, really hard on trying to get results, and the results are lackluster. And sometimes with very minimal effort, they take off. And with more effort, they could do better, but it's good enough for the client.
Right? So that's where, yeah, the agencies just usually get in this this space of basically being like that salesperson who's taking leads from anybody and just cherry picking what he wants to close. And, yes, he's only getting paid on performance. But for that company, that's not necessarily the best way to get the highest percentage of your leads closed.
Steve: Yeah. So, we talked about a lot. So, I'm hoping everyone here got a ton ton of value, and then we'll put the link for the industry report, in the description. Any last thoughts you
Brandon: wanna leave everybody with? Last thoughts. Again, I have, like, tons of empathy for people out there who are, like, struggling with these kinds of things. Definitely reach out to us if you have concerns or if it like, if you're just not able to make these channels work for whatever reason. And I can't emphasize enough that we will we will do, like, whatever we can to help give you clarity and not just be like that type that level two marketer.
Just kinda like, you know, you call a PPC company and you're like, are we, I feel like my results aren't good. They're definitely not good. We definitely would do better. Like, we try not to be that way. We try to be, like, really objective about it.
We'll look into your account. We'll help you understand what's going on. We'll be curious about it. We'll be humble about it. Like, that's that's what's really important to me is that, like, that's the experience that we're providing to people.
And if based on that, they choose to work with us, awesome. And if they if they don't, then that's fine too. Yeah. But that's the that's the impact we wanna have.
Steve: Awesome. Someone wants to connect with Bateman Collective. What's the best way?
Brandon: So we'll throw we'll throw a link in the description. The the easiest way is batemancollective.com/disruptors. If you go there, that's that's like a direct line right to an expert on my team. So you can schedule a call. Usually, we'll have availability, like, same week to have a call with you, and we could talk in-depth about all your numbers.
And I'd love to, you know, share here publicly all the fun stuff that we could talk about, but the reality is so much of it is, like, specific to the things that we might know about your market and to the performance that you've had historically in your campaign and that type of thing. And that's it it's better if we if we help you with that directly.
Steve: So bamacollective.com/disruptors. Mhmm.
Brandon: It'd
Steve: be a week within a week with your team, not six weeks at 09:30 with Brandon.
Brandon: Yes. Yes. It it it's a much better experience than it once was. Like, I I was I was, like, the worst part of the experience for clients. The and then the the final thing here, if you do wanna learn more about about PPC, we'll throw we'll throw a link there as well for we just recently did a training, and this is, like, you know, screen sharing, kinda showing some of the stuff that we're doing, about what's working for us well well in PPC.
If anybody's interested in in diving into that and they just maybe you're doing it yourself or something, like, I I wanna give that as a resource too.
Steve: Awesome. Very cool. Thank you so much.
Brandon: Thank you, Steve. Appreciate it.
Steve: Thank you guys for watching.
Brandon: We'll see
Steve: you guys next time.
Brandon: Shout out to Steve train. Jump on the Steve train. Disrupt us.
