From Immigrant Refugee To $1M + In Wholesale Fees – Ben Muresan Shares His Journey

Steve Trang: Hey, everybody. Thank you for joining us for today's episode of Real Estate Disruptors. Today, we got Benjamin Marrison with Forte Real Estate, and he flew in from Windsor, Ontario in Canada. This year, we went from refugee to private money to do in 1,000,000 last year in wholesale fees. So quite the journey.

If this is your first time tuning in, I am Steve Trang, broker and owner of Stunning Homes Realty, founder of the Offer Fast Homes app, the only MLS you'll need for off market wholesale properties. And I'm on a mission to create 100 millionaires. So if that's something you are interested in, let's connect on Instagram. If you're excited for today's show, please give me a wave. Give me a thumbs up.

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Don't forget this is a live show, so please post your questions for Ben to answer. And you you ready to go?

Ben Muresan: Let's do it, man.

Steve: Alright. So first question, simple question, is what got you into real estate?

Ben: Got a little bit of a journey. Right? So I was, born in the communist country of Romania back in '85. And back then, it was super oppressive just like every other communist country. So, basically, my dad and my my parents decided, like, this is not gonna be our legacy.

This is not gonna be our family. So we fled the country illegally. We were in a refugee camp, came to Canada, the oldest of nine kids, just just to give you some background real quick.

Steve: Nine kids.

Ben: Nine kids. The oldest. One every year for nine years. Boom. Boom.

Boom. Boom. Boom. Boom. Boom.

Right?

Steve: Consistency is key.

Ben: Consistency. Right. So I knew coming here, I just had a massive purpose on my shoulders. I had to do something significant. And so growing up, I was gonna be a musician.

Then finally at university, I realized, like, you know, I gotta I gotta figure out a way to make money. Right? So I started doing every every one of those, you know, pyramid companies and get rich quick companies. I've I've been in in every one of them that you can imagine. Right?

Yeah. And it was all about, you know, the hustle, the grind, making something happen, productive, whatever. And I I read Rich Dad Poor Dad like many of your listeners, I'm sure. And I was like, man, real estate. That's that's what I gotta do.

I gotta get in real estate. So, you know, I bought my first property at, 21 years old. It was a duplex. I was able to move out of my parents' house. Really?

Steve: '21.

Ben: '21, dude. '21. And I remember it was like a $156 a month was my, like, was my total cost of living in this property after utilities, taxes, everything.

Steve: Wow.

Ben: And then I was like, okay. Real estate seems to be the vehicle. I'm like, I can do this. This is something I can do. And and then from there so that was my first deal.

So really kinda just purpose making sure that I was doing something larger, and I just felt that real estate was a good opportunity to both help people, you know, like tenants and sellers and buyers. At the same time, you know, build wealth for myself as well at the same time in our family back home.

Steve: Gotcha. So you said you came over. You're how old?

Ben: I came to Canada when I was six years old.

Steve: Six years old. Yeah. But you didn't go straight into wholesaling. So what was your first venture into real estate?

Ben: First business. You

Steve: bought the house, but, like Yeah. The business.

Ben: Yeah. So the first real business started was a carpet cleaning business. Now you had my boys, the Mathis twins, on here a while ago, and Yeah. And they started janitorial. So very, very similar story.

And, I basically started that company with nothing. I got a $5,000 loan from the bank, bought my first machine, and I just went to work. Mhmm. I didn't know anything about carpet cleaning. I didn't know anything about business.

I just I wanted to do something with my hands, do something tangible, something that would help me, you know, make money at the same time. And it was, it was cool. It was cool because I would get to go and work in the evenings. I've been doing all these junky jobs, you know, like, you know, after the bar would close, they'd send me in to scrub the floors and, you know, we advanced. So we got ahead.

We got we got into talent, grout cleaning, and janitorial. And we were we were cleaning just about everything, new construction builds. And and I did that actually for about six years.

Steve: Okay.

Ben: Six years and allowed me to to do that in the evenings and then basically look at real estate, daydream about it, you know, during the day, go to courses, that kind of thing.

Steve: And then was private money your first venture into the the real estate game?

Ben: Yeah. So I would say I've always been I've always been interested in private money ever since I read that OPM book Mhmm. Right, that everybody reads. And and my brain just keeps asking, how do I do it? How do I do it?

How do I do it? So the first thing we did was rentals. My wife and I have lived very frugally. We're like the typical, you know, Romanians. So we literally saved a whole paycheck for about six years.

Steve: Okay.

Ben: Lived on half a paycheck, saved a whole paycheck, lived in one of our duplexes, drove old cars, all that kind of thing. And, we had about, you know, ten ten or 15 rentals, I believe, at the time. And the market went up, and I thought about, hey. Wouldn't it be interesting if we could create a mortgage company? So we had all these tenants living there, and I would ask them, like, why don't you guys own a home?

Mhmm. And in Canada, there was just the conditions were so difficult to actually get a loan approval. There's so many requirements. Right? Especially after the collapse.

Mhmm. So we basically sold all the rentals, took that money, and we started a mortgage company with it.

Steve: Wow.

Ben: And so that was my primary venture was, how do I raise capital? How do I put together deals? What does it need to look like? So it's the flipping or that business is interesting because the combination of the flipping business, it was a combination of private lending, and and, and basically renovation. So those three components together created this, like, one stop shop real estate lending sales kinda company.

Steve: Okay. And then how long ago was this?

Ben: This was we started this about six years ago now.

Steve: And how old were you?

Ben: Six years ago, I would have been, let's see here. A boot boot '28? Yeah. '28. Yeah.

Steve: So you started a private market company at '28?

Ben: That's

Steve: right. And then what were the, you know, bumps and bruises? What did you learn along the way?

Ben: Oh, dude. It's been bumps and bruises since day one. But, couple major things. Number one, I in terms of the lending side, people say, like, what does it take to borrow money from people? What's the biggest piece?

And for me, it's always about credibility. Do they really believe at the end of the day that you're gonna make that payment if something happens? Do they think you're the kind of person that would get a second job at Wendy's to make that payment if everything hits the fan? Yeah. Right?

So the biggest lesson was learning that, it wasn't even the deal. Like, the deal could be good and they would lend on it, but it's really, do I trust that person borrowing the capital? So I had to learn I had to learn how to be that person, you know. And as far as integrity and all that stuff, I'm I'm just that guy. I would go get a third job.

But really letting people see that side of me and not being just this super, like, professional prim and proper guy, just being an authentic version of myself. So I think that was one of the biggest things I learned.

Steve: For you on the private lending side?

Ben: Yeah. Yeah. Because, I mean, private lending is all about borrowing at x, lending at y. Right? So we all live in the spread in that world.

Mhmm. Nobody has a $100,000,000 unless you're Kevin O'Leary to just, you know, park that capital. So you have to borrow at x, lend at y. Mhmm. So it's the borrowing at x that's the tough part in the private lending world.

Gotcha. Because when you do a deal, like, I wanna do a mortgage deal, let's say, for example let's talk technical for a second. Mhmm.

Steve: So I

Ben: sell the property for a $100. I wanna do a VTB. Let's say that we do

Steve: VTB is.

Ben: A vet sorry. Vendor take back mortgage. Okay. Right? This is old old school strategies that work in in today's world.

So on a vendor take back mortgage, what I might do so I sold that property. Right? Mhmm. I'll get a private partner to come in for the majority of it, let's say 75% loan to value. So he'll come in first position mortgage at a $100,000, and then I'll stay in a second position mortgage, let's say for 20,000 or 20%, and then the homeowner would actually put down 5%.

Yeah. Because in Canada, the rules around mortgages are completely different than they are The US. We do not have Dodd Frank. And No. For the most part, it's unregulated.

You can do so many things in Canada with mortgages. So it's really about borrowing here, lending here, and then finding a way where the home buyer wins, the lender's got his capital preserved and safe, and then where you can make a profit. So I really look at a massive win win win in every deal that I do.

Steve: So when you talk about private money because, like, here in, you know, in Arizona, private money is someone's got a lot of money Yep. And they just wanna do better than, you know, whatever you can get in a in a bank. Yep. Right? So they're not necessarily sophisticated investors.

They just got a lot of money.

Ben: Agreed.

Steve: And they'll lend to people that are flipping or looking to buy cash flow properties. When you're doing private money lending, it sounds like you're lending it to homeowners for their primary.

Ben: Yeah. So we've done both. So the mortgage company we created was around helping people purchase their home. Right? So it was like a home ownership company.

So in our world, we'll basically raise capital. We'll buy the deals. That's how I got into wholesaling was I was we started flipping these homes. Right? And I needed a source, for these properties.

So we'll actually raise the capital, put it together, flip the deal, sell the deal, and then give it to a retail buyer. Mhmm. I'm pretty sure in The US, it doesn't work that way. You can't just lend to retail buyers. I think it has to be the business or something of that nature.

Yeah. Yeah. So we've done both. We fund, you know, we fund investor deals. Mhmm.

We fund retail deals. We really fund all kinds of stuff. So it's always about borrowing and then lending on this side. And they the cool thing is it's highly scalable. Because if you can learn to really raise capital efficiently, raise a million bucks, lend it back out.

So you raise it at six, you you lend it at ten, you get a 4% spread on a million bucks.

Steve: Alright.

Ben: It's a good margin. Right?

Steve: Absolutely.

Ben: So being able to do that, it's fairly straightforward once you've got the hang of it. So that's why I get excited about it, because I love I love raising money.

Steve: Okay. So you did that six year started it six years ago, and that's it's still up and running.

Ben: Yeah. So we've now, we've got about 80 mortgages in my portfolio Mhmm. Which is cool. We originally wanted to have a 100 rental doors. Right?

And everybody's got that, like, mailbox money, get those rental properties, all that stuff. Mhmm. Basically, converted that business into a mortgage business, which is truly the only passive real estate business I've ever been a part of. Because now I'm the bank. Mhmm.

I don't, you know, I don't take care of the property. I don't collect the rent. Everything is automated, so the payments just come in. So we've got we've got a a fairly nice monthly cushion that comes in on 80 mortgages where we're we were able to to basically financial independence, you know, a couple years ago and and really not have to work if we didn't want to. But I love this stuff.

And I love the fact that we're providing homeownership to people who really need it. Right? So why wholesale? Wholesale was, out of necessity. Okay?

So the market went up a lot. There was no deals anywhere. And you know when that's the market rises. You're a broker. I mean, you know this world.

They flood the market with investors. Not always good people too. So in our market, it went up like crazy. Just like here in Phoenix, I had a couple properties here a few years ago. Mhmm.

The market went up like crazy and I was stuck. I couldn't find homes to buy. I used to make, like, 20 offers a day on the MLS. Couldn't get any deals. And I'm like, oh, man.

What do I do?

Steve: So your challenge was you weren't getting enough opportunities because you weren't direct to seller.

Ben: Correct. Because I was everything on the MLS. And we'd have the odd deal come through when somebody say, hey, I've got it. Somebody wants to sell the property or whatever. And I realized I have to cut out the middleman.

Mhmm. Even though one of my best buddies is a realtor and I bought 75 houses with the guy, I was like, dude, we can't do this anymore. Like, I I I you're not finding me the deals, number one. And number two, it's just, it's just not working. So I had to get in it out of, basically out of necessity.

Mhmm. I learned about it. I came actually, I went to GrowthCon. I met Chris Rude there, who's my boy. And, Chris is like, Ben, you're working too slow, Ben.

You need to go direct to Saylor. And I was was like, dude, you're right. You're a 100% right, man. And he really opened up my mind to to creating a business around going direct to seller. And then it it it completely helped remove that obstacle from our company, and then that we could actually keep the deals flowing.

Steve: Okay. So you said that, Chris helped you come up with a way. Because the way we wholesale here, my understanding is, would not fly in Canada. Well,

Ben: it wouldn't. It wouldn't. I mean, it depends how you approach it. But finish your questioning. Okay?

Steve: So what did you do Mhmm. To make it work in Canada?

Ben: So first thing you gotta understand is, like, in Canada, like, you have Dodd Frank over here. Mhmm. We have governing bodies over realtors and real estate transactions. I'm sure you have some, but they're not enforced. Mhmm.

So you can't just put something under contract because the moment you remove that condition, it is a firm binding agreement, which I know it's over here as well. I think the difference is you've got some kind of due diligence period here where, for whatever reason, you can adjust the closing back out or whatever. I don't know how that works. I'm just I'm just making assumptions here. We don't.

The moment I remove conditions, it is a fixed closing date. I have to close or I get tendered on or sued. Mhmm. So the biggest problem with trying to do wholesaling in Canada is that if you don't what you're doing, you're gonna get sued by sellers because you can't close the deal. So you're scrambling

Steve: to make sure you're on it. So, here, they we just have to give up our earnest money.

Ben: Yep. There You're getting sued.

Steve: Yeah.

Ben: Yeah. Unless you explicitly write in the contract. So it's more contractual than it is legal. If you understand how that works Mhmm. And you structure your deal, and there's transparency in the deal, I'm huge on transparency with sellers.

Like, I'm not the guy who goes in and says, oh, no. I'll close on it and then I wholesale it. Like, no. I hey, there's a good probability I'll probably assign this contract with third party. So it does actually work the same, but you just have to make sure that you're a lot more careful because there's a specific closing date Mhmm.

And you don't have the right to extend that, to walk away. You know, you gotta be cash in hand. So for me, as a private lender, I actually kind of reverse engineered it it and said, okay, I'll just raise the capital. If I put something under contract, I'll raise the capital. I've got multiple exits.

Exit one, I use the wholesale exit. So if you wanna buy that property from me, I'll sign the contract to you close on it. Exit two, I double close the deal and just put it back on MLS, which is what we do mostly today. Exit three, I'll rehab the property and put it back on MLS. And exit four, I can always give it to a mortgage client.

So by having that kind of system in place, we never get in this, like, trading and real estate kind of kind of thing where we're just kind of locking up contracts, selling contracts. Right?

Steve: Okay. So I

Ben: think it's just the mindset's a little bit different.

Steve: Exit four, selling it to a mortgage client. Yeah. What is that?

Ben: So that's what we talked about earlier.

Steve: Like Okay.

Ben: So we'll take that property. We'll find a, an end user who wants to buy that home, and then we'll sell them the property and then give them the financing as well for that property.

Steve: Gotcha. So it comes with financing.

Ben: You got it. Yep. Yeah. It's like it's like buying a car at dealership. Right?

You walk in with a with a car you don't like or maybe you don't own a car and the guy says, here, I'll give you the vehicle. We'll give you the financing and, you know, take care of

Steve: it and then there you go. Yeah. So it's not like I don't have enough things to do. I have plenty of things to do. Yeah.

But one of the things that's been on my mind is, like, I've got these properties I'm wholesaling. Yeah. How cool would it be if I can include financing with it? Mhmm. Then it just opens the door to more buyers.

Ben: Now you're talking my language. That's what we do. Yeah. So we actually took, a whole bunch of guys that were renovating properties. So I I put these ads out for contractors.

And I said, why don't you contractors learn how to flip houses? Right? They're like, well, we don't have the money. Cool. I have the money.

We don't have the property. Cool. I have the properties. So I, I was able to give them both, and then we also gave them some training, and, we became the largest Lowe's customer in our region, so we're able to hook them up with our discount and stuff too. So, we do that now.

So somebody comes to us, they put x amount down, we make sure that we've got the capital. If they want it from us, they can do the flip, whatever they need to do with that property, return the capital to us. It really greases the wheel a lot when you can offer financing. Oh,

Steve: yeah. You're giving them every solution.

Ben: There's there's no there's nothing else holding them back from doing the deal other than sheer will of not wanting to do it. But if they've got a desire and the ability, and they're credible, then give them the financing. Because I understand the financing is a real hurdle for people. I think it's mostly a hurdle up here, though. Yeah.

There's so much capital available. Like, you you know this. Right? There's tons of it. It's do you know how to find it?

Do you know how to aggregate it, put it together, and then use it efficiently on deals?

Steve: Well, so that's a very good point. So going back to my next step Yep. If I wanted to do this Mhmm. How do I go find capital?

Ben: Okay. Well, great question. First of all, what you're doing right now is amazing. Right? You're getting yourself out there.

You're branding. You're you're creating awareness around what you do. Mhmm. And and, like, I used to be completely shy a couple years ago. Crystal Crystal tested this.

Oh, dude. I was under the radar. I was a millionaire by the time I was 30. Nobody knew who I was. No Insta.

No Facebook. I used to have a fake name on on Facebook. It was like Yamin Mude. Like, you'll never find that. I sound like some some other guy.

Right? And then I realized actually going to 10 x the first time, I was like, I gotta get out of my shell. If I wanna have massive impact and help a lot of people Mhmm. I gotta be okay with haters and I gotta be okay with, with being very polarizing. That's why you see I'm very polarizing character.

Most people love me or hate me. There's really no lukewarm. So the the first thing I would do is find your audience, find your tribe. So for me, the people that love what we do, the the fact that we, you know, we help buyers, we've got a really amazing mission, very social impact, I find those people and we attract them into our world. And then we it's a simple conversation.

Hi. I'm doing deals. Do you have capital? You know, can I park it for you? So when people ask me, I think one of the easiest things I learned this trick from from one of my buds.

Everywhere he goes, he'll say, what do you do for a living? Right? He says, oh, I help people invest their money in real estate. Oh, what's that look like? Mhmm.

And that's the first step is just having conversations. And the cool part is you never know which dude has $10,000,000. Yeah. You seriously don't, because a lot of people live in that millionaire next door life.

Steve: Oh, yeah. Yeah.

Ben: You know? Mhmm. And and you'll you'll never have a clue. So engaging him in that conversation, you're finding out, hey, this guy's got $10,000,000. You're a great operator.

You know how to facilitate $10,000,000. You could put it back into deals. Most people have that kind of money. They have their own business if it's not real estate. Mhmm.

They're not really good at taking a dollar and making it into two. Right? But us as real estate investors, we have the vehicle. So I think that's the first piece is just I know it's a long winded explanation.

Steve: Well, but I think it's good, right, for people to know. So, going back to here, we got all different ways of, you know, pulling money. There's, the legal way of syndicating it. Right?

Ben: Yep.

Steve: Or other ones, having have them all dump an equal amount of money into an LLC, whatever. Yep. What do you guys do in Canada?

Ben: So we've got mix in Canada as well. We've got, you know, different syndication things. For me, I like to work on a one on one. I'm huge on relationships. So I'm not I'm not really a transactional investor like a lot of guys.

I'm a relational investor. So meaning that I'll spend time to build a relationship with somebody, grow it, and then ask them for the referral. So I'm very much one on one. We'll have a conversation. Hey, Steve.

How are you? This is what I'm doing. You know, what are your goals, Steve? What what are your goals with investing? I wanna make 10%, 15%.

Okay. How much do you have available? Mhmm. And we have these things in Canada called RSPs, which you guys have four zero one k's, retirement registered retirement savings plans. And people park their capital there.

There are millions and millions and millions of dollars sitting in RSPs doing nothing. Yeah. So it's like, hey. Do you have RSPs? Because we're very encouraged in Canada to park money in RSP.

Right? Like, I had a $100 in there. I didn't know what to do with it. I'm just it's there because I saved the taxes because it was deferred. Right?

So I think that's how I like to do is a very one on one. So I might have 20 or 30 investors, but each of those investors is let's say we do a $100, $500, a million dollars, and then they're next.

Steve: And they're next. Also, the challenge that we always have is, like, oh, I've got 20,000. I wanna invest, like Yep. Can't really do anything with 20,000.

Ben: Not really. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. It's it's it's tight when you have less money.

I I look for, you know, kind of qualified investors, people who already have over a $100,000. Gotcha. If it's less than 20, there's not a whole lot you

Steve: do. Exactly.

Ben: You can pull and you can do stuff. My problem is that it's not even that it's it's it's impossible to do. It's just it's cumbersome. It's difficult. There's too many moving parts, too many opinions.

Mhmm. So my opinion is if you have $20, you know, maybe keep investing your education, learn to make a lot more, and then come back and see me. So I'd rather take a guy with $20 and say, why don't you flip the property? Oh, I don't know how to do that. I'll help you do that and turn that 20 into 40.

It'll give you pride of ownership. It'll it'll help you make more money, and it'll create a long term relationship with us. So I'd rather take that guy from 20 to a 100 Mhmm. And then have him invest a 100. That's what I would do with him.

And if because if he's not willing to do the 20 to 40, I probably don't wanna be in business with him anyways or, because the reality is a lot of those people are just take, take, take, take. So you gotta be careful who just because there's money out there doesn't mean you should take it. I've had experiences where people call me up every day. Because the problem with $20,000 investors is a lot of them, that's all the money they have. Mhmm.

Right? How's that deal gone? How's that deal gone? Right? They micromanage your time.

Yeah. And then it just becomes a nuisance. Somebody who's got a million dollars net worth and they're giving you a $100, they're not gonna call you like that because they're just it's it's not even in their in their mind.

Steve: Right. Oh, that's that's a great tidbit. You have

Ben: a gong? We should say gong or something. Boom.

Steve: Don't hit the table. It freaks everyone out.

Ben: I'm sorry. Sorry, guys. I apologize. I'm Canadian. I don't have these, these cultural differences yet.

I don't know.

Steve: I'm talking about, like, when they're in the car listening to it later on.

Ben: My bad.

Steve: So, okay. So you transitioned into wholesaling. So let's talk when did you make that transition or addition? That was not transition. In addition to wholesale.

When did you make that move?

Ben: So we used to so we were flipping these properties. Once I realized what a wholesale deal was, and this was only actually last February. Right? So last February, I meet Chris, and he's like, dude, you got a wholesale. I said, what is this wholesale?

I figured out I spent about two months with a lawyer, you know, ironing up the paperwork. As soon as I realized that I could make $10 or 15,000 and I could take a quick nickel over a slow dime, we stopped doing rehabs. Mhmm. It was actually an opportune moment because our crew had decided as the market came up, most of our guys were like, hey, I wanna flip my own properties. Mhmm.

And we said, okay, cool. So you're not gonna you're not gonna work here anymore. So what we did is we actually funded our own crew to start their own little businesses. Gotcha. And then we went full tilt into wholesaling.

Right? I was like, I need to learn how to wholesale. So I think last year, I actually brought the stats because I I'm I'm data over drama, by the way. So I look at the stats. Data over drama.

Steve: That's the expression. Data over drama.

Ben: Yeah. That's that's all I'm I I don't deal with the drama stuff. Give me the data points. Yeah. So in 2018, we did, 41 wholesales from basically the February until December, and then 21 flips.

It's about 62 of those kind of transactions. And the flips were, like, quick MLS deals. Mhmm. So once I did my first wholesale, we made about, I think it was $15,000 for just for signing the paperwork. I signed the contract, the same thing that you guys do here.

I was like, wow. If I can build a company around this, it's basically arbitrage. Right? I'm Absolutely. I'm finding it here.

I'm selling it here. Mhmm. There's no forced value or forced appreciation like in the in the, in the flipping. Mhmm. So I realized that everybody wants to flip thanks to HGTV, but nobody knows how to wholesale, especially in Canada.

So I thought, wouldn't it be cool if I could become, you know, the the wholesaler for for all these other people? So right away, dude, the answer is, sorry, is right away, we we're Canadians. We say sorry every other word. So just get ready for it.

Steve: What was that?

Ben: I said, we say sorry every other word when we're Canadian. Oh, yeah. But, yeah, right away, we jumped into wholesaling. And then I and then I started looking at how do I build out my company to focus specifically on doing those kind of transactions.

Steve: So what's the median price, in Windsor?

Ben: Windsor right now is about $2.50. So we serve a lot of the first time home buyer market, which is about 160 to $2.20. Gotcha. We're a blue collar town. There's about 250,000 people.

My favorite kind of town to do deals in, because there's always an end buyer. Mhmm. There's always somebody who wants a property, whether it's a, you know, home flipper who wants something that he can do work in, whether it's a, a retail buyer who wants a fully finished product.

Steve: And what, what is your your targeted spread?

Ben: On a deal? Well, I can tell you. So we we shoot to make about $25,000 a deal. Right? And for us, whether it's a wholesale or a flip, we just have one number.

It's $25. I can tell you right now, we're actually fairly close. Let me see your profit per deal. This year's been amazing. This year's actually been $29,000 profit per deal.

Steve: Wow. Which

Ben: is pretty good. Yeah. Compared to last year, which was, about $16,000 profit per deal. Mhmm. So we focused on kind of finding better quality deals.

I know a lot of guys, they run through and do as many of these things as possible to make a 2,000 spread or a 5,000 spread or a 10,000 spread. I'm looking at what, what can we hit a consistent number? Because from my team back home, for our staff, it's a lot easier if they just have a target goal, and they're like, this is the goal, this is the goal, this is the goal. And interestingly enough, the market's so hot, nothing sits on the market for more than three days back home. So we're getting multiple offers, over asking, all this stuff.

It's it's just nuts.

Steve: So I don't know how it is in Windsor. I have friends in Toronto. Yep. And I think, like, the close will sometimes it's not unusual for it to be four months, six months.

Ben: That's right.

Steve: Is that the same for you?

Ben: Yep. Same deal. For us, it just depends on the seller, what they need. So I'm big on But

Steve: I'm I'm on your

Ben: flips. On properties that we have. Mhmm. No. We're pretty much done in thirty days because we've got it pretty ironed out.

We've been doing this for a while now. So thirty days in and out the door. So we're into a deal. I think by the time we close, take possession, sell it, maybe sixty days, maybe ninety if it's pushing it out. Mhmm.

We try not to be in six month deals because you're just burning. You're burning the profit, right, and whatever cost.

Steve: Absolutely. Absolutely. That's the reason I was asking is because, you know, what what's customary up there? Yeah. Okay.

So then what were your challenges when you started wholesaling?

Ben: The legal was number one. Like, really understanding the the laws around it. We've got this organization called Real Estate Council of Ontario. Ontario is the biggest province. And we're very real estate, realtor driven.

Right? So our whole economy. We're about ten years behind you guys. So imagine you guys ten years ago where everything was realtor. Mhmm.

Right? Wholesaling wasn't a thing. Selling for cash wasn't a thing. Billboards, we buy homes wasn't a thing. So my biggest challenge was number one, understanding my legal guideline and making sure I knew what the that line was and I was on this side of the line.

Because I've had inquiries, I've had complaints, I've had realtors. You can't buy houses for cash. I'm like, sure I can. I buy cars for cash. Right?

Can I buy so there's this mindset, like and I love agents? I got a lot of buddies who are agents, but they spend a lot of money in Canada to convince people that you have to buy with an agent. You get these commercials like Of course. Should have hired an agent. Right?

And you got, like, the rock star band next door to the house that you just bought. So there's it's almost a monopoly. So I think my biggest challenge was educating the general public that it's okay to sell privately. In Ontario, we're like attorney states. Like, we have to use a lawyer to close every transaction.

Steve: That's a lot I bet that's a lot of fun.

Ben: Yeah. Well, what what it means is we already have we already have somebody, a fiduciary, who has to close that transaction to make sure your interests are protected. So Yeah. Instead of having them and realtors, we're just so removing that, I guess, hurdle. So the beginning, it was like, you guys are a scam.

You guys are this. I'm like, I've been around for ten years doing deals. What do you mean? Oh, you can't buy direct. So that was our hardest challenge, and there's a cost to that.

I figured out that per market, because we're in about six markets now Mhmm. It's about a $150,000 of branding per market to wash away those concerns.

Steve: And educating them public.

Ben: Correct. My biggest problem is that I'm pioneering this. Mhmm. So education is the biggest component. So everything we do is very, you know, brand driven, education driven, put a lot of content, a lot of videos.

We have to we have to build that goodwill first with the audience before we can say, hey, sell us your house for cash.

Steve: Gotcha. So I

Ben: think that's the hardest part in Canada. And I'm across from Detroit, so it's so easy for me to just hop the border and buy his list from, you know, skip trace and all that stuff. But I realized that I have a unique opportunity in Canada because there's nobody else doing it.

Steve: Right. So that was gonna be my next question. You must be cleaning up. Right? You have no competition.

Ben: Yep. Pretty much. Well, we're starting to get some guys now because we're very US influenced, especially in our market. Like, all of our television, radio is all American based. Mhmm.

So now that Canadians are kinda seeing this opportunity, as a result of, let's say, me putting out a lot of content, there's probably one other guy actually wholesaling that that knows what he's doing. But, yeah, we're educating people. Now they're starting to to kinda get the hand of it. So you're getting a lot of entry level wholesalers.

Steve: Mhmm.

Ben: And and and, again, the problem in Canada is it's not like The US. Those guys don't understand the hurdles they have to go through to get to that stage. It's a lot easier if you're an existing real estate flipping company and you add wholesaling on the front end lead generation or or acquisition piece of your business, and then let it let it really boost up the rest of that company.

Steve: So that's something that slight twists on that is I've been trying to push this really hard. Realtors really hate wholesalers. Yeah. Right? They really look down on wholesalers.

Ben: That's right.

Steve: And I I'm trying to get these realtors to understand, like, if you would just add wholesaling to your business, you would double or more your profits

Ben: at the

Steve: end of the year. But they're so busy judging that Yep. They're missing that opportunity.

Ben: Oh, dude. I totally get it. I think the problem is that it's still a very industrial model, industrial age type of business, where we now live in the information age. I think the the issue really comes down to they're trying to preserve something. So, like, in Canada, you can't get data anywhere.

You guys have Freedom of Information Act. We have Privacy Information Protection Act, complete opposite. Yeah. So I can't pull data, I can't pull lists. The realtors own all the sale data other than the municipalities, which are three or four months behind.

So you can only get it on the MLS database. Mhmm. The problem is the moment you become a data source and you're not leading with value and service, it's just a matter of time before you're starting to deteriorate your own value.

Steve: Absolutely.

Ben: Right? So Mhmm. Why not you know, you're you're you're wiping up the service, like, oh, I just I'm hoarding the data. Eventually, the data's gonna become free. Right.

Somewhere, somehow, like Zillow just made Inlands into Canada. They actually had a a large lawsuit with the Toronto Real Estate Board that they won in the Supreme Court of Canada. So we're gonna start seeing a lot more of this data coming up. But I think if realtors really understand the opportunity they have as real estate professionals, because they know the market better than anyone. Mhmm.

They could they could clean up, and they could they could actually serve their audience better. Right? Because if somebody says they're in a really difficult situation, let's say they don't wanna put their property on the MLS, they don't wanna go through that that process, because maybe it's private, there's a 100 reasons, okay, I can offer you an alternative. Mhmm. Maybe I'll buy the property, I'll wholesale it.

Like, it it sounds like just a nice add on, so I don't understand the hesitation, other than that old school mindset.

Steve: It's it's the the pre programming.

Ben: Would you agree in thirty years it's probably gonna be gone? Like, once a lot of these maybe older realtors retire and, like, these younger guys like you who get it?

Steve: I mean, I've I've I've kinda thought I I haven't looked at thirty years, but I've kinda thought, like, five, ten years that, you know, 95% of the realtors would be gone. And I think attorney real estate agents would become, like, real estate attorneys or attorneys in general. Just, you know, just a handful of them. The people that like the old school service. People that like travel agencies today.

Yeah. 100%. But most people prefer Kayak or Expedia or whatever.

Ben: For sure.

Steve: Okay. So you mentioned that data is a challenge. Yeah. Which I'm aware of of again, I have friends in Canada, and they can't just, pull sold data. So you can't pull sold data, let alone phone numbers, equity, how old they are.

You can't pull any of this stuff. Correct. So what are you doing? Are are you doing anything for data?

Ben: Yeah. So it it's like anything else in business. When there's a massive problem, if you find a massive solution, you get paid a lot of money. Mhmm. So, again, being on the front end of this, I asked myself as a business owner, not a wholesaler, how do I aggregate and collect data?

Right? So the the easiest, I guess, direct answer for Canadians who want to pull data is call a realtor, become his buddy, and start pulling the expired listings list. Right? But I can't go to ListSource and just pull the data on, you know, properties that have been vacant for six or seven months. So what we do actually is we actually aggregate the data from scratch in a couple different ways.

Number one, we do large, like, samples, opinion samples and stuff online, where we start finding out, like, what people, started, you know, getting them to opt in the conversations, right, kinda like a lot of online marketers do. Mhmm. We also drop about a quarter million flyers a month. Just a lot of flyers.

Steve: That's a lot of freaking flyers.

Ben: And we we really focus on inbound, warm transactions warmly. So our lead flow will be a lot less than some of The US guys, but our conversion rate will be higher because we're not really working on cold conversations. Mhmm. Then the third thing we started doing a while ago is we we actually started, approaching and getting all access to the open source information because you you still have a whitepages.ca. There's still some of these public, sources available.

And we started, we actually hired somebody to create, to create a a program that would allow us to aggregate that data and put it together. So Yeah. We've finally been successful in doing that, but it took a long time. And, you know, it took a lot of connections, a lot of permission based, you know, access But we can't just walk into a courthouse and say, how how far is that guy behind on his bills? Or we have no Zillow.

It doesn't exist.

Steve: So you also you guys don't have, like, a foreclosure sale No. Database?

Ben: Nope. None of that stuff. And we don't even have foreclosures, frankly. We have power of sales. So it's a whole different process.

Steve: What's that?

Ben: So power of sale is so I'm a lender. Right? If you don't pay, let's say you're my mortgage client, I don't have to sue you and take that property back. I'll put a for sale sign and just sell it from underneath you. What?

Yep. Oh, yeah. That's why I love the mortgage business because, yeah, in Canada, the so rentals are highly highly regulated in Ontario. It's very difficult to be a landlord because landlord tenant board and all this stuff. Mortgages is not though.

So you buy my property. You default because you don't pay. I gave you thirty five days to come up. If not, I'm literally putting that property on them a less listing it and selling it from underneath you.

Steve: While you're living it?

Ben: While you're living it. Yeah. And then I get a sheriff to boot you out, and then you're gone. Now I haven't had to do that. I don't wanna do that.

I don't like to do that.

Steve: Well But

Ben: having that Those

Steve: are the options.

Ben: Correct. Gives you a lot of, it gives you a lot of power as a lender because you know that you really hold the balls at the end of the day. Mhmm. Right? And it's really on my on my judgment.

So, like, we dictate what a default is at the very front end of your loan. Right? So if you don't pay x amount of days, it's it's not automatic default. If you don't pay your insurance, it's a default. If your taxes are behind, it's a default.

Right? So

Steve: give them thirty five days to cure it.

Ben: Thirty five days to cure it or or we're putting a for sale sign on your lawn. So that's the difference is I don't have to go through a court process to evict you from that property. I simply invoke my rights as the lender because I have the charge. So it's like it's like any bank. Right?

The bank owns your property. You don't own it. Mhmm. So long as you have a mortgage, the bank owns that property. Right?

And and I'm a believer that you never own the property even when it's mortgage free because the city and municipality owns it. Because you don't pay your property taxes, you'll find out who owns that property.

Steve: Absolutely.

Ben: We just have a much more direct process in in in correcting that. Right? By power of sailing, not foreclosing.

Steve: Gotcha.

Ben: But that that being said, while I add one point, is that it's it's kind of nonrecourse, meaning that if I sell it for $50 more than what's owing on it, I have to actually give that homeowner the difference. Mhmm. Where I think over here, basically, if you're if you're foreclosing, and correct me if I'm wrong, the bank just takes what they get. Is that right?

Steve: Well, in Arizona Okay. You get the difference. But good luck getting that difference because there's a whole bunch of junk fees, attorney's fees, whatever. Yep. And then if an investor buys it, they're buying it at 65, 70% of market value.

Ben: Do you not get anything back?

Steve: You're not getting anything back.

Ben: Yeah. Fair enough.

Steve: Okay. So, another thing I I I, you know, I was paying attention to what you guys are doing. You also have, I don't know if you guys call them, bird dogs or

Ben: Bird dogs.

Steve: Yeah.

Ben: Lead ninjas.

Steve: Yeah. So that's another way of solving this problem.

Ben: Mhmm. So we kinda use our bird dogs or our lead ninjas kinda like you guys are wholesalers over here. Mhmm. Because the paperwork is the most complicated part in Canada, like, we have a a six page purchase and sale agreement. Right?

I think you guys are are a lot shorter. Right?

Steve: Or two? No. We're we're at 10.

Ben: Are you really? Okay. So we have a standard doc that we use all across Ontario, and it's about six or seven pages depending on conditions and everything else. So to avoid you getting into that situation where you're brokering deals without a license because you get fine. Right?

So Rico's like, hi. You're brokering deals. Show us that you're not. And now you got this investigation. You gotta go through this whole nonsense.

So what we did was, what if we're the company that buys everything, you just help start a conversation, find the lead. So it's basically a lead generation business. So you as a lead ninja come into our company. Right? We'd show you all the guerilla tactics that are available.

You go out. You basically start a conversation with somebody. You take that lead. You log in to your Lead Ninja portal. You plug it in, and then we'll do the follow-up call.

We'll do the contract. We'll close the deal. We'll sell the deal. And we pay you a $2,000 per conversion fee. So it's kinda like wholesaling, but it's not because you never touch a contract.

Steve: So that's not acting as an agent?

Ben: Not at all.

Steve: Because

Ben: because you're never touching a contract.

Steve: So but you're starting the conversation.

Ben: Sure. But you're not you're not negotiating. You're not doing the paperwork. You're you're not a fiduciary fiduciary on behalf of that client. You're basically saying, hey.

Do you wanna sell your property for cash? Sure. Would you entertain an offer? Sure. I would.

It's no different than a cold caller. Yeah. Right? Because a cold caller is gonna take that data Mhmm. Put it over here.

It's really upon us as the company to make that contact point to do the paperwork, to do all the legal side of things.

Steve: Alright.

Ben: I see where you're going with this train of thought, though. That's okay.

Steve: Well, I I'm just thinking as far as on our side, I think that would get you into trouble.

Ben: On you guys? So how do you deal with bird dogs over here? Officially?

Steve: Sure. We don't.

Ben: Okay. I say a non agent. Let's say you're an investor, because I'm not an agent either. Right? You're just an investor.

If somebody brings you a lead, can you not pay them on that lead?

Steve: The official answer

Ben: is that. Okay. Let's stick with that then. Yeah. Okay.

Steve: Yeah. What happens behind these scenes, I can't say.

Ben: Fair enough. Fair enough. So in Canada, again, you're bringing a lead. You're starting a conversation. Yeah.

Right? Right. No different than a cold call or anybody else. So so we even like, you know, cold calling. We we have to get a DUNS number, do not do not call list.

We have to go through this whole process. Mhmm. So everything is very kinda tightly in place. We don't do anything outside the box. My whole job is to find a better and bigger box that's available and

Steve: then work within that box. Gotcha. Makes sense. Okay. So with your Lead Ninja, I mean or your company, what does Forte Real Estate and all this look like today, organization wise?

Ben: In terms of team? So we've got role roles. Okay. So I think the biggest thing I focus most of my energy on these days is investing in my team. So I don't buy the deals.

I don't see properties. I haven't done that in a few months. Mhmm. I started doing all that from scratch and then, you know, kinda worked our way up. So I look at finding Navy SEALs, not foot soldiers.

So we've got nine Navy SEALs in the office, and we've got 30 Lead Ninja members right now that are out and about finding deals every day, you know, starting conversations, and then we're we're picking up the business at our office. Mhmm.

Steve: So nine guys finding deals. So, yeah.

Ben: So let's say You

Steve: sent me a video the other day.

Ben: I did. Alright. There's nine guys in the office. Yeah.

Steve: Those are the nine people finding deals?

Ben: No. Those are nine people that are processing. So a team, conventionally so we've got acquisitions. So we've got two or three people in house doing acquisitions. And they're

Steve: the ones responding to the direct mail.

Ben: You got it. Yep. Okay. And and dealing with the ninjas. Right?

Because we use everything through Podio. So we've got beast mode set up. They plug in the lead into Podio. We grab the lead. We call.

We do everything. We facilitate. We've got a, a lead manager, office manager. We've got a deal coordinator. And then the basement, which I know you're jealous of because we've got that amazing marketing guy.

We've got our media guy down there, Dave. We've got our project manager.

Steve: Looking for another job listener.

Ben: No way, bro. That's my guy. He's he's solid. He's such a good dude. So we've got Dave down there.

We've got Vinny down there who does technology and marketing. And then we've got a project manager. And we've actually got an in house realtor who sells our deals. So all of our dispo goes to an agent now.

Steve: Okay. Meaning that she lists it.

Ben: Correct. Yeah. He'll list the property back on MLS for us because the market is so hot right now. Mhmm. We haven't done a wholesale in a couple months, and our our cash buyers aren't too happy with it.

But it's like, as as a company, we only do x amount of deals. If I hit my number, so for us, we're we're trying to hit about a $150 a month. If I hit that number, then we'll wholesale deals. Right? If we don't, then I'm putting them back on the MLS because Right.

We we put a property up last week asking one sixty nine. The guy sold it for $2.35. That's standard in our town. So it's tough to justify going through a wholesale transaction when you're $30.40, 50 k over on the MLS.

Steve: Wow. Nuts. Right? So one thing that I've, thought about so let me ask you this. The the realtor that works for you, per deal, commission, what's what's the compensation for that guy?

Ben: So so he's a Keller Williams guy, and he's full out, his commission through Keller Williams. The only difference is he has an office in our office. So he's actually got two. He can work through Keller. He can work at our office.

Gotcha. We give him all the resources, but everything goes through commission, goes through the board.

Steve: But you pay him a commission, every agent, every Yeah.

Ben: Commission. In in Canada, like, 5% is the average, I think, over here too. Right? Maybe six?

Steve: Six.

Ben: Okay. So five or 6% is the average back home. I used to do everything through, like, discount brokerages. So we used to sell everything ourselves and usually pay half half the commission back out to the cooperating brokerage. Mhmm.

But I found that the time that we spent funneling phone calls and managing the appointments and all that stuff, we'd rather just pay a few thousand dollars more, give it to somebody whose full focus is is on our company, and then it actually adds another team member in. So I'm always looking for how can I even if it costs me money, how do I get somebody else into the team that's a rock star?

Steve: Yeah. So I have an idea, which is a little controversial. Okay. Maybe blasphemous.

Ben: Hit me.

Steve: But I've I've been of the opinion that if I was just a wholesaler and I was not licensed, I would just have a realtor on my team on salary, and their job is just to sell the houses.

Ben: Mhmm. So

Steve: instead of paying 2% of, like, five or six sales, it's just you're getting paid 40 k, 50 k a year, whatever, but that's your job, and that's it.

Ben: What's wrong with that logic? I mean, that's that sounds great.

Steve: But you're but you're telling me you're paying a commission. Right? Like

Ben: We we structured in a commission just because it was easier for him and his paperwork and everything else. But, ideally, we were we were gonna bring in somebody's salary. Just for this particular circumstance, we're like, let's just give the commission a go. Yeah. But, yeah.

I mean, I love that idea. I I think we limit ourselves a lot with, like, these are the rules, this is what we have to do. Instead, I just pick up the phone, call whatever board of realtors you have to talk to and say, what is the exact rule around this? Is it Right. Is illegal, possible, possible, ethical, moral, or not?

And if the answer is yes, then everything else is, again, it's drama. It's not data. Mhmm. So so we have those conversations. I'll call the board.

Hi. I'm doing this. Is it okay? Like, we started, not us. One of the local agents, because now they can publicize data.

They started putting the data like sold prices on homes and sending out mailers. Mhmm. Board, we can't do that. That's not a thing here. You you can't go through that extent.

And they call them, is this legal, moral, ethical, or not? Mhmm. Well, technically, you can, but you shouldn't. Thank you. Have a nice day.

So I think maybe I love that idea. I'm I'm always about pushing the barriers. I'm always about pioneering. Because if we don't do it, Steve, who's gonna do it? Like, if we don't advance the industry and if we don't push these things forward, nobody else is.

We're gonna sit here and and because we didn't get here by doing that. You follow me?

Steve: Oh, yeah. Doing what everyone else told us to do.

Ben: Yeah. Somebody was controversial. Somebody was polarizing. Mhmm. Somebody had an amazing podcast show.

Yeah. Because before you, dude, I don't even know what other podcasts were around. Like, I told you before I came in. I I followed you from from day one. It was just I was like, wow.

An actual, legitimate, honest discussion with people in an articulate way.

Steve: Yeah.

Ben: So you're already you're already paving the way by doing this. Right? So I think just keep paving it.

Steve: Well, I appreciate that.

Ben: Yeah, man.

Steve: Jan Young has a question. What percent, of your gross is profit?

Ben: What percent so in our business, you're talking just on the wholesale piece, on the whole business, like I wanna

Steve: say for this, probably just the wholesale side.

Ben: Okay. So on the wholesale side, we average about a 35% margin Mhmm. Profit on those.

Steve: The

Ben: double flips are much higher, so we do a lot more double flips. Yeah. For that reason.

Steve: Double flips, meaning?

Ben: I'm sorry. Double closes.

Steve: Okay.

Ben: So you guys call them hotels here?

Steve: We call them hotel, yeah.

Ben: Hotel? Okay. Yeah. So we do mostly hotels these days. Yeah.

Because we'll buy a property for $150, you know, we'll we'll do nothing, maybe clean it up, pop it back up, and then, you know, we sell it for $1.91, you know, 200, that kind of thing. So Yeah. We're doing mostly those until I basically do what the market tells me. I don't just go in like I'm a wholesaler. I go in and say, what is the market condition telling me?

What are the data points telling me? And, you know, is the market active enough where I should be putting properties here? Or should I be doing wholesale deals or should I be doing long term holds? So I'm just I'm adjusting based on what the market's giving me. Oh,

Steve: you're introspective. Yeah. Which is a huge advantage if you can do that. Mhmm. Right?

To actually sit down and think versus just do. Yeah.

Ben: I I think you have to be. I don't know the other way of of doing this. Like, we're very blessed, I'll be honest, because we have you guys. I think US and Canada are the two best countries in the world. We have you guys, so whatever happens here, we're all behind you.

Yeah. So it's a little bit like a crystal ball. I won't lie. You know, that's why I come to The States a lot to hang out with people, and I'm in masterminds here with, like, you know, the DM family, Mark Evans, and those guys. It's because whatever happens here, we're falling right behind you.

So, like, when Detroit took a massive tank right back in 08/00/2009, we were right behind you guys Mhmm. With automotive and everything else. So if I see how the wholesale industry goes here, then it kinda gives me some insight into what I can do back home. But as a business owner, you have to use the resources you have available. And if I have you guys as a resource, then use it.

Right?

Steve: Yeah. Well, it's it's, it's a very good point. Right? So you're talking about the DM family. Yep.

And there's some big, big players in there.

Ben: Yep. Definitely.

Steve: So, you know, there's a lot of people that are concerned about investing in education or thinking, you know, I can't spend a thousand bucks on this or that, to invest in myself. You know, I see every once in a while, like, oh, just go watch YouTube videos. You don't need to pay for a mentor. Yep. What would you say about that?

Ben: Well, you don't. Honestly, you don't. But what do you want? So so when I first started, I I actually went to a Rich Dad conference. I was 23 years old.

I paid $25,000 Yeah. US for a Canadian. Right? So back then, it was, like, $40.42 grand. We didn't have money.

Steve: Oof. Or

Ben: maybe maybe just just under 42 because the exchange was was quite high. So we didn't have money. Mhmm. I didn't I didn't commit to them, and they didn't commit to me. So all that happened was for the next two or three years, I spent my wife's income paying that back.

Mhmm. It left a a horrible taste in my mouth. And, basically, I just kinda grinded my way out. I didn't really have mentors. I had a couple guys that, you know, I hung out with.

And it wasn't till I met Chris, Chris Rood. Right? And and I went to this conference. And and Chris isn't just a real estate coach. Right?

He's, like, a personal development coach. And he says, do you want the shortcuts, or do you want to keep wasting time? Like, which is it? So I realized that it's like Super Mario. Right?

You can actually jump to the next level by just buying your way there.

Steve: Yeah.

Ben: So now I look at it as, what is your ignorance worth to you? Because you're not gonna spend 5,000 on a mentor or a coach, but you're gonna spend the next six months wasting your energy and running around, and you'll probably spend more than that in just dumb decisions. Right? Seriously, you will. Yeah.

It's like, why join the DM fam? Those guys those guys are rock stars. Right? Mark Evans is a rock star. I think he's an incredible business owner.

And I joined that group because those guys could give me insight, like, how do I get my business from one to 10 overnight?

Steve: Mhmm.

Ben: Not in some get rich quick scheme, but how do I do that systematically in the most efficient way possible? Not how do I waste three years of my life? Because until I met Chris Rood, like like, dude, I was wasting time. I was flipping houses, I was watching HGTV, and I was following the herd. And then I realized, you know what?

Everybody who doesn't pay for coaching is another version of sheep. They're all sheep, every one of them. I don't care what the excuse is. Once you've paid for coaching and you become the wolf, you realize how dumb it was when I didn't pay for coaching. So my biggest, I think, mistake over the years is that I could be much further ahead had I recognized that I needed somebody who knew what I needed to know.

Right?

Steve: I just wanna say officially, this is our first time that we've had a Super Mario Brothers with us on the show.

Ben: Yep. Now I just told my age. There you go. Boom.

Steve: I love Super Mario. Me too. Okay. So deal flow, you said you're doing, like, how many deals a month?

Ben: So right now, we we target to do so we're doing $29,000 a deal, and we're doing about 10 to 15 a month right now. That's that's our target. We look more of it at a revenue model. So when I when I kind of partnered up with Mark and and joined the DM fam, we're looking at different metrics, different KPIs. We're looking at this is the rev we're trying to hit.

Whether we have $50 spread on one deal, and let's say we happen to get a $5 spread on the other deal, it's a monthly rev model that I'm looking at. I look at this more like a like a business than as a wholesaler. Right? So it's just if we hit the target, that's where we're at. I'd love to get to about thirty, forty deals.

And I think, you know, as we grow the LeadNinja brand, because we just we just started that couple months ago.

Steve: Yeah.

Ben: That's really gonna help us accelerate our growth quickly. You know, because some of those guys in the DMF, they're doing, like, 50 deals a month. It's dumb. It's just crazy. Now, I I also look at, like I told you at the beginning, the higher profit deals.

I don't wanna do $2,000 transactions.

Steve: Alright.

Ben: Because my carrying cost, my legal fees are gonna absorb any profit I have. Because every deal that we close on between land transfer tax, legals, and the rest of it, I got $5 out the door just just to close the deal.

Steve: When you say legal, we're talking like title fees.

Ben: I'm talking about title and lawyer cost. Okay. Lawyer doesn't work for free either. So he's he's $1,500 or 2,000 just on the legal bill.

Steve: Yeah.

Ben: So a lawyer's a cleanup. My lawyer loves me, dude. Loves me because I run you know, I basically keep the business going. He's a great guy. He's been with us from the beginning, but there is a cost to to closing.

Steve: Are you doing any virtual deals? That's, William Mezzadore wants to know.

Ben: Oh, man. Oh, man. Well, part part of, part of growing is is, yeah, we actually just launched. So so we were in one main market. I had a massive limiting belief about doing virtual.

I had all these questions, and I went, Chris really helped bring that out of me, and so did Mark, actually. I went to Mark's event, and he was like, dude, this is how it's done. And every rebuttal that I had was completely squashed. So long story short, yes, we are. We're now in six different markets, and we've done, like, we don't even go to the house sometimes.

We're just doing it virtually, contract, send in the paperwork, go to the lawyers, close the deal. Yeah. So it it is a phenomenal, use of leverage, which a guy who uses a lot of OPM, for me, leverage is key. Whatever I can leverage, I do. As long as it's ethical, moral, you know, and and I'm and I'm doing the right thing by people.

If I think I'm screwing somebody, I have no part of it, no interest, whether it's a lender, a style of deal, a partner. Like, I have zero interest in taking advantage of people.

Steve: Gotcha. How much are you spending a month on marketing?

Ben: Well, now here's the question. Is it on the branding side or is it on the lead generation side? Because we actually have two separate flows.

Steve: Both.

Ben: Keep in mind, like, we're we're trying to launch into new markets. So now as we come into new markets, like, this is a scam. Blah blah blah. $150, no longer a scam.

Steve: Okay. So not including the education part.

Ben: Collectively, we're we're about 70,000, 80,000 per month.

Steve: Okay. That's marketing.

Ben: That's right.

Steve: And you were saying it was a quarter million in in direct mail?

Ben: Quarter million in direct mail. We had about 15 channels at one point. We've narrowed it down about four that actually work. Uh-huh. So for you guys who, like, wanna know what's the best channel, for me, marketing is all mechanics.

Right? That's something Chris taught me. Basically, it doesn't matter what you do as long as you do it consistently and you track and measure the results, then you split. Right? So if if if you're getting a result, right, split test it.

If you get a better result, then switch, you know, switch over. If not, then stick with the original one. So, is your next question, what's the best channels? Mhmm. Okay.

Cool. Direct mail is my primary. Love direct mail. We do a lot of referral business because we're relational. So referrals cost me nothing.

Let's be honest. Right?

Steve: Right.

Ben: You build a relationship and then they start coming in, right, as a residual, basically. Referrals are huge. We we really started doing a lot of PPC lately because nobody in Canada does PPC and Google. And then other big one is Facebook. We hired probably the best Facebook guy in the country over here.

His name is Nate Kennedy. Mhmm. The dude's amazing. And, his company's been getting us, like, hand over fist leads lately. So Really?

So that's kind of our thing. So flyers and then a whole bunch of online stuff.

Steve: That's surprising on the on the on the Facebook part.

Ben: Yeah.

Steve: So then, monthly overhead, total, everything.

Ben: For the whole biz? Yeah. So let's say $70.30. So probably about a buck 10, maybe a buck 20 a month with everything we have coming in. Yeah.

So a lot

Steve: of people are trying to get to a 100,000 a month in revenue. Yep. You're well past that.

Ben: Yeah. Well, I got this philosophy. Right? My philosophy is if you spend a dollar and you make two, right, then find out a way to spend as many dollars as possible. Everybody else is contracting.

Mhmm. Like, when we got to our first million dollars, my wife and I, we saved our way there. We were frugal. We were the typical immigrants.

Steve: Yeah.

Ben: But then I realized I can save my way to a million bucks, but I can't save to a $100,000,000.

Steve: Right.

Ben: So if you're spending a dollar right now, and you guys gotta hear me, if you're spending a dollar and you're making two, you need to spend more money. So my goal is if I spend a 100 k and I make 200,000 in rev, beautiful, then I'm up a $100. So the answer, how do you get there? You need to spend. Because you need to gain attention.

You gotta gain influence. You got people gotta know what you're doing like this show. Right? You're out there. Everybody knows about disruptors.

I'm the I'm a disruptor. Like, I come in this way. This is the perfect company with a perfect brand for me. Right? Yeah.

Because we're disrupting the space. Mhmm. So I think my thing is everybody's afraid to spend money. Everybody wants a Happy Meal discount on everything.

Steve: Yeah.

Ben: There's no discounts on marketing. Marketing is an investment in your brand, in your growth. It is not an expense. So I think that's the biggest mental shift I had to go through. Because I went from 5,000 a month to 10,000 a month, and I was at 10 for a long time.

Then we got to about 20 for about, you know, two, three months. And then a couple months ago, I was like, you know what? I'm never gonna be able to get to two, three hundred thousand a month if I don't spend that kind of money.

Steve: Yeah.

Ben: So we went from, like, 20 to 70 in one month.

Steve: That's awesome.

Ben: I think it's necessary.

Steve: Oh, absolutely.

Ben: I mean, I don't want to. I'd rather just buy a new car every month.

Steve: But Hey. If if if the money that goes out is is less than the money that comes in, then you just keep doing it.

Ben: You got it.

Steve: Valuable resources.

Ben: In terms of?

Steve: What you recommend as far as, information, products, anything in general?

Ben: To do wholesaling? Yeah. Okay. In Canada Mhmm. Specifically?

Well, you know, the first thing is relational, right, for me. So find a realtor who understands what you're trying to do and partner with them. Let them give you like, realtors can't call the the the expired listings. We have a do not call kind of clause in the contract, so they can't they can't make those conversations. I don't know if you guys have that here.

Yeah.

Steve: Sure.

Ben: You do? So if you if you list the home in Canada For

Steve: expired, but for, like, you know, it's it's frowned upon. Okay. It happens a lot.

Ben: Yeah. Ours are actually baked in most of those contracts. So if you list the property with a with a seller and you don't sell that property, I, as another agent, can't approach your client and say, hi, list with me. It doesn't work that way. Gotcha.

Right? So, as a result, you as a wholesale or an investor can get access to that whole list of expired listings, and then market to those folks. Hi, I buy homes. Make sure you can. So, here's the secret with wholesale in Canada.

Make sure you have the ability, the cash, and the intention of closing on that transaction anytime you write a contract. Mhmm. If you have those things in place, you'll never get in a lawsuit issue. If you don't, I know guys like, dude, I got sued for $20. Like, do you have money to close the deal?

No. Well so there's an easy easy answer for that too. Find a guy with money to close the deal. Your boy. Right?

Right. Absolutely. So we have guys who, I got a deal under contract. Can you help me close it? I got you.

No problem. Mhmm. Let's let's partner. Let's find a way to work together. I'd rather help you get to that level, and then you'll make enough money than you can invest it back with me anyways.

Right? If that's the right move for you. So I'm I'm a big believer in just helping people get there. So I think the biggest resource for these guys is find somebody who's actually doing the business.

Steve: Yeah.

Ben: Not on Instagram, you know. They'll they'll be showing your, you know, your flash on the gram and thinking like, find the guy who's doing ten, fifteen, 20 deals a month, making a $100 a month, and just ask for help. People on IG are pretty cool. Like, I used to have this limiting belief that they don't respond back. But I hit you up.

I'm like, yo, what's up, bro? You're like, hey, man. I'm like, oh, shoot. Right? So just, like, reach out to me.

Reach out to other guys who are doing the business and just ask for help. I think that's the biggest biggest

Steve: resource ever is just ask for help. Alright. And then we're we're gonna be going, in five minutes with Chris. So I'll just hit a couple of these questions real quick. What is your motivating factor?

Like, why are you why are you doing what you're doing?

Ben: I love this question, man. For me, at the end of the day, it's massive impact. Mhmm. I come from a place of massive oppression where our people basically are on bread lines. Like, that's where we came from.

My father at 27 had four children, five children, and he and he fled a country on foot, on foot, you know, illegally. And if he could do all that for me and bring me to this country at six years old Yeah. It's like, how do I not impact thousands and thousands of people? I have no choice. Mhmm.

So at the end of the day, everything I do, like, it's not about the money anymore. Right? I mean, the money's cool. After you make a million dollars, it's just numbers on a board. Like, let's be honest.

Right? Once you have your basic needs, you only drive so many cars, have so many houses, have so many you know what I mean? Beyond that, it's like I'm doing it because I love it. I'm doing it because I love impacting people. And I love finding that guy who's like me at 20 years old.

You know, that's the guy I wanna talk to. Because that's the guy who's like just looking for somebody to mentor, somebody's gonna help them. So for me, Chris was that guy. Mark was that guy. I have two main mentors.

By the way, I found the two best mentors available and asked them for help. It's the same advice I give that guy. Right?

Steve: Yeah.

Ben: Dude, you're the best personal coach. You're the best business coach. Like, I'll pay you. Whatever it is, $50 a year, it doesn't matter.

Steve: Yeah.

Ben: So that's my huge whys. I do it because I love it. I do it because I wanna impact people. I wanna inspire and motivate people. You know what I mean?

Mhmm. My daddy was a minister. I watched him growing up, the most influential man in my life. And I watched him, like, help people his entire life. So I I wanna I wanna further his legacy by being the best version of myself possible.

Steve: I love that. And, you know, I think we have this in common, you know, being, having to flee because of communism. Right? So, like, you know, my grandparents left China because of communism. My parents left Vietnam because of communism.

My dad was actually you're talking about legally, was arrested and thrown in jail for trying to flee illegally before I was born.

Ben: Wow.

Steve: Right? And my aunt had to bribe him bribe the jail to get my dad out. Right? That's how secure the whole system was.

Ben: And that that's how it was back home too. Like, you would you would pay your way for everything. You go to the hospital, deliver a child, and you're pregnant. You have to pay the doctor to deliver that child. Yeah.

That that's just how communism is. Like, it's it's it's it's amazing when you leave that to look back at how they did things and think, wow, that's it it it can't even fathom that.

Steve: Right.

Ben: So when you come here, you and I, we know immigrants do it better. Am I right? Come on. Give me some. I mean, because we just have that mindset of, you you know You

Steve: came here for a reason.

Ben: Yeah. We we came here to do something significant. So I'm not trying to downplay Americans, Canadians, whatever. Like Yeah. But if you've got that much intention and that much willpower in your being, you can't stop me, bro.

Like, you can knock me down. I'll get back up. Whenever it is, get back up. Right? I started doing the the rap thing a while ago.

I came out of my shell, and I'm a musician. I started doing this rap thing, and I call myself the humble wholesaler. Start putting out tracks. I got a fake gold suit, fake gold chain, fake you could check it out on my IG. Yeah.

I did that, but like, you're nuts. You ruined your brand. You ruined your legacy. I'm like, dude, if a little bit of fake gold ruins my brand, what that what value is that brand?

Steve: Mhmm.

Ben: So get out of your shell, man. Like, live a life of purpose. If you're not living in purpose, then what are you living for? Yeah. You know what I mean?

Absolutely. I think you and I get that because we come from a very similar background.

Steve: And then we'll have this be the last question. Williams wants to know, what do you struggle with right now?

Ben: The only thing I ever struggle with is my own mind. Because if I put something in my brain, like, I can achieve that, then I'll focus on that so much intentionally for for months and months and months until I find a way to connect the dots. Mhmm. The only limiting belief you ever have is the internal limiting belief. Because the limiting belief about external, like, is wholesaling possible?

Yes, it is. The vehicle, is this the right vehicle or the right company to work with? Sure. Whatever. It's the internal.

So William, like, dude, if you could put it in your brain, you can see it. Right? Whatever the mind can believe and can achieve. Right? You know, you can see you can achieve it.

So that's the biggest thing. If I want to be the next, whatever, GC of Canada, I got it. Mhmm. But you gotta put it in your brain, and then you gotta get rid of the drama, and then reverse engineer how do you get there. How do you get $2,000,000 a year?

Reverse engineer that process.

Steve: Yeah.

Ben: How large does your company have to look like? How much capital do you need? Write it on a piece of paper, and then drop the drama. And then it's just data points. Month one, I hit it.

Month two, I hit it. Month three, I hit it. And there you go. Now you're at a million bucks. Now you go to 10.

So Yeah. All in here. Would you agree with that?

Steve: Oh, absolutely. I I completely agree with it. And even just to, elaborate on what you said. Right? Writing it out, because that was an exercise I did a long time ago.

Yeah. Right? Picture your business as doing this. Right? Close your eyes, picture it out, Then write it out.

And once you've written it, now your mind knows how to do it. Yeah.

Ben: Yeah. Because you gotta envision it first. Yeah. If you can't see yourself as a millionaire like, I dreamed of buying a Lamborghini forever. Right?

When I was a little kid, I wanted I saw it on my, like, refugee wall. There's some, like, some kid had a Lamborghini. I'm like, oh, man. That's so cool. I want that.

Yeah. And then, you know, it got to the point, I'm like at some point, I kept making excuses why I didn't buy it. It wasn't even money after a point, because there's enough credit in this world. You can buy whatever you want. Right?

But it was like, oh, I'm never gonna drive it. I'm, you know, I'm too busy working. It's gonna be a distraction. And then Mark said something to me one day, he's like, dude, you have to check the box. Because you made a commitment to yourself, you're gonna buy something.

If you can't check a $200,000 box or a $100,000 box, how can I check a $10,000,000 box over here? Mhmm. So I think it's something to be said about checking boxes, and they start really small. You know, working out, I lost 10 pounds. I need to lose 10 pounds.

Every day, I have to just get my exercise. Box, box, box. So when you write things out, it's so powerful what it does to your brain because it forces you to either put up or just realize this is drama. Right? You're either gonna do the work or you're not.

Consistent action over time. The the book, The Slight Edge. Right? You've read that book?

Steve: No. But it sounds like The Compound Effect.

Ben: Basically, the same thing. Right? You just keep putting daily consistent action. It's like that picture of the of the iceberg, you know, where, like, only this much is above water, the rest of it's underwater. I'm ten years of iceberg, man.

You only see the last year and a half because I realized, like, I can do so much more than what I was doing. Right. Right?

Steve: Well, I think that's a perfect way to end it. If someone wants to get a hold of you, how would they do that?

Ben: Couple ways. IG, you know, Ben Humble, CEO. Website, humble.ceo. Or you can check out leadninja.c if you guys wanna learn how to do real estate deals in Canada. And, yeah, check us out.

Dude, just shoot a message. Reach out to somebody and just say, hey, how do I do this? Or I need help or what? Like, you'd be surprised how generous the real estate community is.

Steve: Absolutely. Right? The top producers are.

Ben: That's what I noticed about people who are at the top of their game. Right? Like Chris and Mark. Those guys will give you all the time in the world. Mhmm.

If they know that they're helping you do something more, you know, larger than yourself. Yeah. But nobody's got time for drama and b s and nonsense. Yep. So just reach out.

Say, hey dude, I need help. Can you help me? Can you give me some direction? Because at the end of the day, our legacy is what? Investing in the hundreds or thousands of other people who say, Steve's that guy that I look to.

Mhmm. Right? Steve's that guy that really helped me through his podcast, understand what I had to do, give me confidence, I took action, I succeeded. Like, that's what we want at the end of the day. Right?

Steve: I mean, that's what my one of my, favorite sayings by Jim Rohn was that, you know, I just wanna know that I was part of your journey.

Ben: Yeah. I love that. Yeah. Dude, that's that's so amazing because, really, we gotta live it we gotta have a purpose somewhere. You know what I mean?

And for most of us, I think once we hit a certain monetary financial threshold, it's it has to be impact or purpose or legacy or something greater than the next car and the next boat and the next whatever.

Steve: Absolutely.

Ben: You feel me? Yep. My brother.

Steve: Alright. I love this guy. Thank you guys for watching. And Thank you. In a few minutes, we'll start with Chris.

Ben: Love it.

Steve: Awesome.