From Running an MMA Gym to Owning 9+ businesses clearing $3MM+

Steve Trang: Hey, everybody. Thank you for joining us for today's episode of Real Estate Disruptors. Today, we have Mike Moulton with Optimistic Capital, and Mike flew in from Charlotte, North Carolina to talk about how he went from owning an MMA gym to running multiple businesses. If this is your first time tuning in, I'm Steve Trang, sales trainer for some of the top wholesalers in the country, and I'm on a mission to create 100 millionaires. Question I get all the times, how do I become one of the 100 millionaires?

The information on this podcast alone is enough for to help you become a millionaire in the next five to seven years. If you will take consistent action, you will become one. If you wanna get there faster, send me a DM on Instagram, and we'll see if we can help you. If you get value out of this show, please tag it from below. Share this episode right now.

That way we can all grow together. And this is a live show, so please ask your questions for Mike to answer. You ready?

Mike Moulton: I'm ready. Let's do it.

Steve: Alright. Cool. So first question is, what got you into real estate?

Mike: Alright. I gotta be honest. Back in the day, Russ Whitney, 2AM, was something about that mustache. It was kind of like when Lululemon pants first came out and you're like, just drawn in by them. That's what it was.

It was Russ. So I watched watched an infomercial, went to one of the free weekends

Steve: Mhmm.

Mike: And bought four courses on multiple things, wholesaling, rehabbing, etcetera. And that was it, man. The rest was history.

Steve: How long ago?

Mike: Oh, that was I'm gonna date myself here, but that was, early two thousands.

Steve: Early two thousands. And then it was an infomercial on TV?

Mike: It was. Yep.

Steve: Okay. And at this time, you were in you you you had your gym or this is this is way before then?

Mike: No. You know, I was actually a corporate boob, full fledged, worked for General Electric, traveled the world. Yeah. Did this IT leadership program. So I was doing that full time.

The gym came in leading What's

Steve: IT leadership?

Mike: Oh, I'm sorry. Information technology. Completely dated compared to what your team is doing outside. But, but, yes. So it's basically we're doing business to business websites in multiple languages around the globe and,

Steve: You're helping people make websites.

Mike: Yeah. Helping people make websites to do, sell we were selling plastic pellets. It wasn't that exciting. But

Steve: Well, but, I mean, at that time, there was a huge need. Right? I mean, back then you had, like, what, Angel Fire and, like

Mike: Yeah. Actually, the, the first, iMacs, remember you could get them in a color? Yeah. Like, that line

Steve: where you're

Mike: in the blob. Yeah. Like, we that was all GE's pellets at the time. So Gotcha. That was the only cool thing is walking through a plant and seeing, like, a big pallet of that spilled on the floor, you know.

Somebody wasn't getting a computer for Christmas that year, but

Steve: okay. So you were doing IT, you were traveling to do that, and then you see this infomercial Yep. Catches your attention.

Mike: Yep.

Steve: You hear the promises of, you know, freedom, blah blah blah, and you go to an event. I did. And you bought four programs.

Mike: I did. Four programs at five grand each.

Steve: Alright. And from those programs, you just hit it off in real estate.

Mike: I did. You know, one of the things that, I always tell people. So we went I say we. My wife, Jean, came with me. She was also in corporate America until recently, but we went we didn't have kids at the time, so we would go to this weekend wholesaling gig.

I live in North Carolina, so it was up in Greensboro area. And the one thing that instructor said that kind of changed it for me on the way I was getting education at the time was, Hey, have you ever heard of these local Rias? And I'm like, No. I've never heard of a Ria. What is it?

So they're telling us. So then I go home and find out excuse me. Find out that I can buy, like, courses and go to the Rio and get a lot of information a lot cheaper. We didn't have the Internet was was alive, but it wasn't like it is today. So Yeah.

Anyway, actually, those courses came with deeds. So I took the other three courses and I put them on eBay, and I sold them for what I paid for them and transferred the deed to this guy in New Jersey. Mhmm. And then I was done with that. And then I was just getting education and taking action locally through through the RIA.

Steve: So Okay. So you were able to recoup your initial investment? Yep. Yep. Got it.

And, you know, Russ went and actually got a chance to meet him last month.

Mike: Oh, he did. Yeah. I I I've heard him on Clubhouse and some other stuff. He seems super cool. Yeah.

Steve: He seemed really nice. He had a very unorthodox way of dressing, but a very nice guy.

Mike: Yeah. Yeah. I mean, he's a genius. The the millions of dollars he made in info products, I mean, it's insane.

Steve: Right. So you go and you you learn wholesaling, and then you take the information, and it pushed you into Rios.

Mike: It did. Yep.

Steve: And then what did you do with the information in Rios?

Mike: You know, it was funny. I I just left 2005. I I was building up to quit my corporate job. I was just getting I was doing well in in, the corporate world, but it wasn't my passion at all. I remember closing my door the last, like, four months and just working on deals.

Mhmm. And I had five deals that were all, like, 5 to 5 figure deals, you know, 10 to $20,000 deals, all ready to cash out. So I gave they were reorging, and they're telling me I'm probably gonna have to move to, like, Wisconsin or something. I'm like, that's not happening. I live in Charlotte.

Like, it's way better. So, anyway, I went in and I fired my manager that day, and I'm like, I'm just I'm just not gonna do it. I'm I'm coming off the a talent list for you, and I'm gonna do it for myself. Mhmm. I come home.

Four of those five deals went bad.

Steve: What happened?

Mike: So, they were just like buyers, couldn't get the money, wasn't financed. I didn't know what I was doing. I thought I had it. Like, if you go to a REIA and someone says they'll buy it, I figured they would their word was good. Because I'm coming from corporate America, where people's word, you know, you get a four year education minimum to be there.

Mhmm.

Steve: So I'm

Mike: like, if you say you're gonna do the job, I'm like, you're gonna do the job. Yeah. Then I come out in the streets and I'm like, oh, it's not so simple out here.

Steve: Right. Yeah. So you learn really quickly some valuable lessons. Actually, talked to Larry Yatch, at the last CG. Yep.

Yep. And it was interesting. I was talking to him, like, because, you know, some lessons he learned from leadership. And one of the things he said was going from the Navy SEALs to civilian life is that people don't necessarily do what they say they're gonna do. Right.

That was, like, as big as, like, what what in the world is going on here? Yeah. Yeah. Do you guys experience that on on the streets?

Mike: Oh, it happens, man. I mean, it happens. It's just people aren't you well, you know, we we do a lot of construction, so Mhmm. We see it there every day. You know, it's just crazy.

Painters don't show up or whatever.

Steve: So you already submitted your notice to quit.

Mike: I did.

Steve: And four of the five deals that you were expecting to close or you're expecting to close five, but four of them failed. Yep.

Mike: But you

Steve: still closed at one. I did. Okay.

Mike: That was that was a, it turned out being my first wholesale deal. It was a total $1,000 paycheck. But I was like, man, this is like this is it. Like, I did it. I still have it framed at home.

It's really funny.

Steve: Oh, that's awesome. Yeah. So then what'd you do with that?

Mike: So that, I just put it back in the, there was a guy back in the day. I don't know if you remember, if anyone remembers Scott Reister out of Texas. Mhmm. It was he had a course called and it back then, it was a physical course, like, a six inch binder. I still have it.

It was, how to get all the motivated sellers you can handle. And he That's

Steve: a great title.

Mike: Dude, it was great. I'm like, if this was, like, keyword search, I'm in. But it was it was awesome. I mean, it had, like, 48 different ways, like, bandit signs, talk to attorneys for probates, like, anything you could think of. So I just started executing some of those strategies.

But, you know, one of the things I don't know if many of your listeners are thinking about quitting quitting their jobs to go full time, but, like, I felt like I needed a security blanket. So I had met this guy at the RIA, Dave, super nice guy, and he seemed like he was doing a bunch of deals. Turns out he really wasn't doing that many deals. Sure. But we decided to partner up.

So still good guy, but after, like, you know, he had to watch his twin girls and it was just, like, ridiculous. So I was running circles around him. So I had to break off with him early on, like, six months in. Yeah. So, anyway, that that was the end.

That's the last partnership I've ever had.

Steve: So you took the thousand dollars you made from one of your five wholesale deals, spent it in Scott's program Yep. And turned that into

Mike: that first year, I I was I was able to make, like, $6,070,000 dollars. I mean, I was making 6 figures in my twenties working for GE, so it wasn't like it wasn't as exciting. But what was cool about it was is I saw the opportunity of what we could do. Yeah. So I started marketing for subject tos and lease options to people with low low equity in their homes Mhmm.

With with good fixed loans in place.

Steve: So at this time, though, you were able to prove the concept. This is not just a dream on an infomercial.

Mike: Correct. Correct. That's right.

Steve: And now you're committed.

Mike: Yep. I'm committed.

Steve: So at this point, were you ever going back to corporate America?

Mike: No. I I kept saying to myself, I could always go back because I had a great resume. Mhmm. But I'm like, this is just not it's not like I'm a hard worker. I mean, people always say, you know, you wanna you wanna work, what is it, a hundred hours a week?

Go work for yourself. Yeah. I mean, some people do have that that existence. But for me, like, everything I do and work on, for the most part, is so much fun. It's not work.

Steve: It's not work. Yeah. Okay. So sixty, 70 k your first year, and then what'd that turn into?

Mike: That turned into, we were just marketing. Like I was saying, like, I think it was Realest was I had a subscription to Realest back in the day and was pulling people five five that bought a house five years or less Mhmm. With 90% or more leverage with, I think back in the day now I'm really dating myself. It was, like, 5.8 or below loans. Like, that was an insane rate.

But really what we're looking for there is just people that couldn't afford to work with a realtor to exit the property. Mhmm.

Steve: And

Mike: they were just willing to deed it over into a trust, and we used, we we did that way and had a whole process, and then we're able to take over an asset and then sell it on a lease option or seller finance.

Steve: So generally, people are targeting high equity. Mike's targeting low equity.

Mike: Correct. It was like and and they're kinda like what the hedge fund guys are buying now. Mhmm. Like, you know, now it's 1990 or newer. Back then, it was literally, like, ten year old homes or less.

And it's like you really is like shooting fish in a barrel when you're marketing to that because these people don't have another out.

Steve: Right.

Mike: So we were doing that, and then, all of a sudden, 2008 started creeping in. And that just was like that was a challenging time.

Steve: So before we jump into that Yeah. What was some what was some of that adversity you were facing. Right? Because I mean, you're transitioning from w two to working on your own. What was some of the challenges you faced initially jumping into working for yourself and and and not dabbling, you were all in, but, like, starting your real estate business.

Mike: Yeah. You know, it's funny. The first one was my parents going, you left Jack Welch to go do this. Are you insane? And I'm like, stop.

It's gonna be fine. The second one was

Steve: And Jack Welch is a big deal.

Mike: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, you know, here's the thing. Right?

Like, that guy worked his butt off. He's legendary. Yeah. But he also had, like, one or two heart attacks and got divorced one or two times. So it's like, there's trade offs.

Steve: Details.

Mike: Details. You know, the fine print no one reads about. Yeah. But the the biggest challenge was when I was, like, part of a team in corporate America, I had, like, one focus. Now all of a sudden, I'm the marketer, the bookkeeper, you know, the chief cook and bottle washer, like, anything to do in that business.

Mhmm. So that was my first challenge. And then really just kinda shifting. That really did start pushing right up towards the downturn, where things got really challenging. So

Steve: So you were still a solopreneur this whole time?

Mike: Yes. I yeah. To clarify, I went full time in 2005. Mhmm. Had this partner for, like, six months.

Steve: Right.

Mike: And then I was, like, solo from then on. So Yeah.

Steve: But you didn't have assistants, employees?

Mike: No. I had one assistant. I had one assistant. Yep. Okay.

So she helped get marketing campaigns out, answering the phones, things like that. Okay.

Steve: Alright. And then you jumped, and then the recession hit you. Yep. And you have all these low equity deals. Yep.

So what happened to you then?

Mike: Oh, man. I tell you, literally, I get a call from one of our lease option tenants and they're like, hey, Mike. Can you meet me over at Dunkin' Donuts? And I'm like, like, donuts? It's all good.

So I roll over there and then I sit down and they're like, Listen, just want to be professional. And these are people with big jobs. Like, they're working for, like, Honeywell or, like, any of the big IBM, any of these big companies in the short market. They're professional people. And they're like, I lost my job and I have no plans on getting another one.

Like, I I don't see that for myself. I'm trying, but I'm getting destroyed here. It's

Steve: not in the foreseeable future.

Mike: Right. So they're they're like, we're gonna actually screw you over. Like, I'm like, What? What's going on? Those are

Steve: the words?

Mike: Yeah. I'm like, So you call me to Dunkin' Donuts. They don't even have jelly sticks at this Dunkin' Donuts. You sit me down, and then you tell me, like, you're gonna screw me over? Like, I don't know whether to thank you for being professional about screwing me over or punch you in the face.

Like, I I don't know. So then I I take that one back. It's oh, then the guy goes, oh, and by the way, in North Carolina, because they all did the research, it's forty five days minimum to evict somebody. So we're gonna keep our family under this roof as long as we can. I'm like, holy schnikes.

Steve: But they're as professionals that can be after telling you effie to your face.

Mike: Oh, yeah. Yeah. I'm like, this might have been what drove me into MMA at some point. I don't know. So then then all of a sudden, the next week, I get someone and they're like, hey.

Can you meet at Starbucks? And I'm like, man. Are we really doing this again? And, like, it was the same thing. So this started happening.

So I always tell people in the early days with those subject to deals, it was like having, like, twenty, thirty kids, but, like, like, 10 of them needed braces every month. I'm like, because people you get people out, and then all of a sudden, it's a $56 turn, you know, doing carpet paint, whatever, to get it out again. And you're hoping to get 5 to $10 down to go again, you know? So, yeah, that was one of my days in subject to lease option exits.

Steve: So what happened to all those subject tos? Because one of the things that concern, whether from a homeowner or people getting into sub to Yep. Is what happens if the tenant stops paying and then what are you gonna do because you're stuck you're stuck holding the bag? So

Mike: That's correct. So you can structure them different ways. I learned different ways to structure them. So I initially said to someone, hey, if you if I say, in in the in the rule, like, if you're looking at modern day strategy. Right?

You can go on someone says, hey. I've got a house to sell at 125 Main Street. You go on Zillow, and it says, hey. Estimated rent is 1,000 per month or whatever. You know the payments like maybe 600 PITI.

I'm just using simple numbers. Sure. So you're like, oh, I'll get a $400 spread. So you could take over that loan and then get that lease option tenant in there. What we what I did initially was I would tell people, hey.

You know, I'll if I when I take over your payment, I'm responsible for this, ethically and through the paperwork till it's till it's till we either refinance you out or however we do it. What what I would do differently is I started, talking to other creative finance guys, some of the older generation that's, like, doing maybe They

Steve: know every they know they they forgot more than we know.

Mike: Yes. Yes. Yeah.

Steve: So the advice they gave you was

Mike: So this so it was like, hey, why don't you make it so that you're not responsible for the payments until you find your lease option buyer? Mhmm. I said, well, that's smart. Because sometimes I would burn two, three months just just doing that. And then they've also were like, you can put clauses in there that says if if that lease option tenant doesn't work out, they are responsible again, the seller, for that payment until you find someone else.

Now, I didn't feel ethically that that was

Steve: That doesn't feel right.

Mike: It doesn't feel right. Because I'm like, if these people literally are looking at us to provide a solution, that's not really the right way to go. Mhmm. So anyway, what ended up happening was I took, like, all my savings to keep these things going. It was, like, literally a bunch of kids with no teeth by the end of it.

I made it through. A lot of people did not make it through that time. There was some rough spots, a lot of sleepless nights. But, you know, we were We did

Steve: kept that all subtoes.

Mike: Yeah. We kept them. We kept them, then sold them off.

Steve: Tremendable.

Mike: Yeah. Yeah. We did we did the best we could at the time. And, you know, now any of those that you kept are double or tripling in price now.

Steve: Right. So another thing is because some of the people that are doing this, you know, they're jumping into this, they're, they may be married, have other people that, you know, rely on them. So, as you're losing sleep, you and I, we'll deal with adversity, right? We'll lose sleep, whatever.

Mike: Right.

Steve: But our wives may not handle adversity the same way.

Mike: That's correct.

Steve: How is that affecting things at home?

Mike: Well, the good thing is, you've met my wife, Jean. She's like probably the coolest woman I know. I mean, I'm not saying that to get like more points this weekend or anything, but she really is. But she what's cool with her, and this is, like, marriage advice for anyone that wants it, is you if you have a spouse that actually has their own purpose every day, like, from a, work perspective or whatever it is, I think it takes a lot of the pressure off. Like, if you have a stay at home, wife or husband or whatever, there's nothing wrong with that.

But I think when they're so busy every day focusing on like, she was building her career. She stayed on the corporate track till recently. So she wasn't as, like, dial she was like, what happened today? And then she's like, alright. And then she had all this other stuff to do.

Yeah. So it really it really was, she was very supportive.

Steve: So it reduced the burden?

Mike: Reduced the burden. Yeah.

Steve: Gotcha.

Mike: Like, Gene and I have actually never really fought. We don't No. We don't, like, take that energy. We're not

Steve: a gigantic human being. I wouldn't fight you either.

Mike: I'm too big, man. I gotta talk to Joe. But but, yeah, I mean, like, we we just look at it as there's just so much negative energy. Mhmm. Why spend it on each other?

Like, let's just figure stuff out. Anything kid related.

Steve: Yeah.

Mike: She's the like, you're right. And she is. She's always right.

Steve: Okay. So then, you got this challenge. You're able to survive it. What were you doing to deal with this challenge?

Mike: Well, basically just upping the marketing for lease option tenants. We were using bandit signs back then. So you didn't

Steve: change your exit strategy? You just kept with that exit strategy?

Mike: Yeah, I couldn't really because, I mean, we would we were lying to I was lying to myself. Like, I'd be like, hey. I'm gonna get three to 10% down on this next one. And then we even started like, hey. You're you're like, if it needed five or six ks, like, you can either take it as is or, like, that's part of your down payment.

You know, just getting creative and, like, I don't want to spend another $6 on this house. Mhmm. Like, if you can come in and show me you can fix it up, and we had, like, a schedule over ninety days, you would get a credit of this against the house. Mhmm. And they had to have some money.

But some of those just turned out being rentals because we were like, okay, forget the lease option strategy. We just gotta get through this storm right now. Yeah. So that's basically what we did.

Steve: And then when did things change?

Mike: Things changed, 02/2010,

Steve: I

Mike: started working short sales.

Steve: Mhmm.

Mike: So that was basically, that became my number one strategy, was just doing short sale quick turns.

Steve: And what does that mean, working short sales?

Mike: Yeah. So we were marketing to other realtors and to homeowners directly that were facing foreclosure. We were stopping the sales if we needed to. We were making offers on the properties, working with the banks and their appraisers or BPO agents, broker price opinion, come out and value the properties. And then we would either buy the property for the price we could get, or if it was too high, we would just work to either broker it out or whatever we had to do to get it disposed.

Steve: So you were sourcing the stressed sales, taking those homeowners that raised their hands, try to negotiate with the bank. If it didn't work, refer it to a realtor who would list it.

Mike: Right. And we actually because I own a brokerage, we would just keep it in house and do that.

Steve: You own a brokerage? Yep. When did you open a brokerage?

Mike: I opened a brokerage in 2005. So

Steve: 2005. So before this whole mess, you opened up a brokerage?

Mike: Yeah. I mean, I opened it up as so here's what happened, if you want the real history, Steve. I'm gonna I'm gonna lift up

Steve: the

Mike: real covers for you. So, so when in North Carolina, when I started Subject To's it might have been 2,006 on the brokerage, 2005, 2006. When I started Subject To's, there was this huge mass, like, law issues coming from Raleigh. Like, no no investors can take over any property subject to because they didn't understand it.

Steve: Mhmm.

Mike: And they're like, it's fraudulent. It's this and that. Unless you have a broker license. We're like, really? And so they're like, yeah.

Because then we can keep our thumb on you.

Steve: Like Oklahoma now.

Mike: Yes. It is. It is. History repeats itself. Yeah.

So the entire so we have two Rias in Charlotte, so I always say we have a diarrhea. But the two Rias in Charlotte were, like, pushing towards petitions like crazy. Like, sign this like, we can't do this to us. Meanwhile, while they're doing that, I'm like, How long does it take to get a license? And back then, it was a sales agent license and then a broker license.

Now it's just one broker license. But anyway, it was four weeks. And then you take this state exam. And then I could immediately go into broker for four weeks. Like, weeks and two exams, I was I had my own firm.

And then they changed it. I was the last class you could do that. Now it's two or three years. Yeah. So anyway, I just did that.

I'm like, because I'm not doing anything wrong anyway. I'm trying to help people.

Steve: Well, and I think the the lesson here there's multiple lessons here, but one of them is that you didn't take no for an answer. No. It was how can I fix this? And, like, one of my biggest pet peeves when talking to a vendor Yep. It's like, we can't do that.

It's like Right. Alright. Well, this relationship is over.

Mike: Yeah. Exactly.

Steve: But if it's like, how can we do this? Like, I'm glad you're you're asking this question. Let's figure out how we can do this. Right? Yep.

But someone says, I can't do this.

Mike: Yeah. We don't need you.

Steve: Yeah. You provide no value to me right now. Okay. So you go get your license and start your brokerage so that you can do creative financing.

Mike: Yeah. It was for creative financing and also, like, if we if we did ever sell anything like a fix and flip or something, it was primarily to be able to, look for deals, you know, on the MLS, but also just be able to make extra commissions on our stuff.

Steve: But it came in really handy in the short sale market.

Mike: It did. Yeah. It came in really handy. You know, we had to have a ton of disclosures because we were we were also the principals buying it, plus we were listing it and whatever, but we just disclosed the heck out of everything.

Steve: Yeah. Okay. So short sales were lucrative?

Mike: They were. They were. It was, it was I didn't realize it was weighing on me, having everyone's burdens on you all day long on our team. Like, because you've got then we started getting a whole group of people that were using us to stay in their houses longer, where they'd be like, Hey. I need you to postpone my sale one more time.

And I'm like, Well, we don't just do that. Like, it's because we're trying to get the deal done, not, like, whatever. And then, you know, if we were went to list the house while they're still in it, they're leaving it amass, like, disgusting. It shows awful. We can't get it sold.

They weren't keeping up their side of the bargain. So it just started weighing on us a lot. So there's a transition to the next phase.

Steve: Which is?

Mike: I got into fix and flipping again. I said, you know what? Well, sort of hard more hardcore. Twenty eleven and a half and '12. I said, I went into hudhomestore,um,.com.

And like everybody that was buying off HUD, I said, Listen, that was the first wave, 2012, 2013, of the hedge funds coming in.

Steve: I'm trying to think of it. Screwing things up for us, other foreclosure sales.

Mike: Yes. Like, everything was just getting insane. So all that was the first round of all the local brokers Mhmm. Like, pouring themselves out to get these guys product.

Steve: Mhmm.

Mike: So I said, instead of in the Charlotte Metro, which is Mecklenburg County, where everyone's beating each other up, I'm like, I'm gonna go in the six counties or five counties that touch it and not do that and just build a construction team that can travel. Like, when I say travel, I'm saying within an hour of Downtown Charlotte. Yeah. But that was that's harder work. Like, people don't wanna put in the harder work.

Steve: Mhmm.

Mike: But the harder work has bigger paydays, and it's generally more more repeatable and reproducible. So that's what I did. So I got on HUD at homestore.com, got a virtual assistant. She's still with us today. And every morning, I would just pull down the list of houses I wanted.

We had, like, a spreadsheet on how to make the offers, send them to her. She made the offers. And then, we'd wait and see what we got, and then we'd just rehab houses.

Steve: Okay. So you weren't going there as far as contractor services. You were just finding houses to flip on a hot home store.

Mike: Exactly.

Steve: When did you do the gym?

Mike: The gym was at the exact same time. Okay. So 2012, I started training, mixed martial arts. Mhmm. And as my wife, Gina, always says, she's like, why is every hobby that you enjoy, you have to turn into a business?

And I'm like, I don't know if anyone else is like that, but that was me. Yeah. So, anyway, I really liked my trainer. He was an ex UFC fighter. And, we were just, you know, I was it was a whole new world for me.

And MMA was, like, super hot, super cool back then. I mean, it still is, but, like, the UFC was kinda just getting its notoriety. Dana White had taken it over. Mhmm. Like, it was just it was just a culture you wanted to be in.

Right. So we opened up a gym in, like, of inside of a Velocity Sports performance, which they have those in all the major cities. Like, people train for the Olympics in them.

Steve: Mhmm. And

Mike: we got an octagon. Actually, we had to get a hexagon because we did not have the trademarks from Dana White to get the octagon. But anyway, so we were we were training, and then we had, like, some fighters and local promotions, which was fun. The name of the I think I left the website up, actually. Shock Factor MMA.

It was just a cool little website. It had a fist with, like, lightning bolts breaking out as our logo. But, man, I tell you what, that went the deal of it was was I would do more of the business side of that, like, really promote the business, get it set up or whatnot, and my partner in it, the MMA partner, would do the coaching and training. Filament. Yeah.

What ended up happening was, like, it's not that profitable of a business No. At all. And all of the fighters that we had were all, like, young bucks, like, you know, 18 to 22. Mhmm. And they're all, like, every one of them, hey, man, can I, like, maybe sweep up this month and not pay?

And, like, I'm like, alright. I don't need 22 of these guys doing this.

Steve: You get some really clean floors.

Mike: Oh, yeah. Well, this place is freaking spotless. We're gonna have lunch here on the floor. But so anyway, I realized my MMA business partner wasn't really his skill set to build out. He could build out trainings, but not like what you need to do to get local social media and all this

Steve: to

Mike: drive people into the gym and for converting them. So it just after a year, I was like his name is John. I'm like, John, I love you, but this is I gotta just focus on real estate full time.

Steve: You know, I've I've I've got the same issue. Like, how do we monetize this? Like, you know, everything we do, like, how can how can we make money from this? And so I'm you know, I do kung fu. Right?

Mike: Yep.

Steve: And so I want to like, I I I tell my seafood, like, if we could just record this and just post this, like, just imagine what we can do, but Yeah. They're they're they're very opposed to it. But, yeah, I wanna monetize every every hobby, just like you say.

Mike: Yeah. It it it got a little crazy. So we sold off everything. I had my garage was full of, like, all this awesome MMA equipment. And I'm like, I think it's rotting away in here.

I should sell it. So we sold everything and that was pretty much it. And I miss it. So that

Steve: was a twelve month venture.

Mike: Yeah. It was a twelve month venture, man.

Steve: Alright. Okay. So now you got you're buying from HUD HomeStory. You're buying for those of you guys who don't know, you're buying directly from FHA, right? FHA foreclosures.

Yep. So you're buying from there. You're flipping those.

Mike: Yep.

Steve: And then you added some additional ventures.

Mike: Yeah. Well, you know, it took me I was I was basically, fix and flipping from that point on. And then we got into how can we find more we we started networking with local wholesalers. Like, I know a lot of people are doing that now Mhmm. To get deals.

So when you're a rehabber and you know what your cost is and you know what your fulfillment capability is on a on a project, a lot of the wholesalers don't real like, I mean, they become very valuable to you because, you know, other people might say, hey. That's not a deal. But I'm like, I know everything from the deal out the door to the dispo. So if I can fit deals into that window, like, yes, I'll work with wholesalers all the time. So we just started doing that and that worked out really well.

And we just were able to really feed our inventory for three, four years over very little direct mail at home store and just working with local guys, going to meet ups and stuff like that.

Steve: That's that's basically what, Mark Del Toro and Chris Johnson, we came on the show and they're talking about how their entire business is predicated on co wholesaling, not co selling, buying from wholesalers to create product.

Mike: Yeah. Yeah. And when you're a turnkey provider like they are, I mean, it's just it's so much easier because they they know, like I was saying, you start at the end and back your way in the way you need to pay for something.

Steve: But it's it's just math. Yeah. I think that's his word. It's just math.

Mike: It's just math.

Steve: Yeah. Alright. So fix and flipping, but you've also got some other additional revenues.

Mike: Yeah. So now now we've gotten into, I've got adapt a couple cool adaptive reuse commercial projects. So adaptive reuse is basically when you take something from its existing, status, like say a shopping mall, and you could make it into self storage or something like that. I haven't done that. But I've got warehouses that we are creating, we're adapting them into apartments, so cool boutique apartments, and then like some commercial spaces in the front.

So I've got one of those going. And I've got another historic building that's eligible for historic tax credits, which is cool. So those are those are buy and hold strategies. Another thing we're doing, we've got we got our first self storage this year facility. Mhmm.

We got a second one under contract. So what we try to do is really get in and learn a certain, like, way of doing things before we try to everyone uses the word scale. The word scale, like, can be very scary because you don't want to scale a bunch of crap. You know what I mean? And, like, I see that way too much.

Like, we're all, like, type a personalities. Like Well, we

Steve: wanna get to the finish line. Yeah. But we don't wanna do the work necessary. Get us to the point where we can get to the finish line.

Mike: Correct. Correct. So it's it's been, like, one of those things where the last two or three years so I will 100 say one of my weaknesses that could be a strength I don't know is I really enjoy figuring out another strategy. Like, I enjoy that. If I can just

Steve: Problem solving.

Mike: Yeah. Go to a coffee shop with my laptop in the morning, like, how are we going to do this? Whatever. That's what I like to do. Now, when you do that on new ventures or new strategies, it's not always the most profitable until you figure out how

Steve: to do it The right way.

Mike: The right way. Yeah. Or just you take more licks to the chin. Yeah. You know, so anyway, I became two years ago, I became a manufactured home dealer in North Carolina as well.

So we do modular homes. We do double wides, like, on land. So we'll do infill projects where there's extra lots that are left in communities that were developed fifteen years ago. We'll come in and clear them, either well and septic or community sewer and water, and throw those in. And like I said, like, affordable housing is not going anywhere nationwide.

Steve: No. It's not.

Mike: There's just a number. No.

Steve: There's more and more need for it. I wanna ask a couple of different questions here. Sure. First question is running multiple businesses. Yes.

Right? This was not your role when you were at GE. No. There must have been some challenges and adversity along the way. How did you get from guy running business by himself, build partnership to running multiple businesses?

Mike: Yeah. Basically, it was just, I mean, you know, the the corny weak answer would be, I just kept pushing through it. But Mhmm. I mean, I did. You did.

But literally so here's the thing. You can either be when when I first started, Russ Whitney, back in the day with the stash Mhmm. Said, listen. You need to be a transactional engineer. So you spend $10 on marketing or whatever it is.

Every single lead that comes in, you have to be able to monetize it. Well, as a newbie, that is very stressful. Like, this one should be a landlord. This one like like buy and hold. This one should be a wholesale.

This one should be a fix and flip. This one should be a wholesale. Like, whatever. You don't even know what you're talking about at that point. Mhmm.

So I always say, like, you know, when you're first starting out, you have to pick one. Because I you could argue what I do, and I I argue this with a lot of our friends at CG. What we do is, like, we run our business like a mutual fund. And and the reason it we have all these strategies. And the reason is because it hurt so bad in 2008.

Right? Mhmm. But at some point, I gotta get off that that fear. Right? So you got you got to move past the fear.

So anyway, we know how you just take one thing at a time and dig into it, but you can't go on theory. You have to put money up and try stuff. Uh-huh. Luckily, I've never had any, like, ginormous failures, like, that were, like, took me out of the game. But we all have losses.

I mean, I we still lose on one house a year, at least.

Steve: Right.

Mike: It's not, like, catastrophic, like a 100 g's or anything, but, you know, we we all have those losses. So you gotta be able to take risk. I think your risk tolerance gets better as you take more action. Yeah.

Steve: But, obviously, you made it through. Was there was there coaching along the way? Were there peers, the Rias? Like, who were who were you bouncing ideas off?

Mike: Yeah. I will say so the Ria thing ended pretty early for me. Like, that that ended February '9. You know, what's really funny is our buddy, Larry Goins. Mhmm.

He was the head of the RIA when I joined back in the day. And now Larry's a good friend, locally in Charlotte. But, yes, I got involved with I sought out people that had these the knowledge or skill sets, like, either the gurus, whatever you want to call them, but the people. And I placed myself in those environments. And it's very uplifting when everybody's got, you know, your your network is your net worth.

Everyone says that. But when everyone's got similar challenges, then all of a sudden you realize you're like, you have all these people. You have a role at x. Mhmm. So you gotta put yourself in the environments where, like, for example, manufactured housing.

I went out to Clayton Clayton. Oh, actually, you know what? I started this. I went to a, manufactured home seminar not seminar, like a conference before COVID. And I met all these I met some guys from Clayton, Clayton Homes.

They're, like, the biggest. And then I went out there and, like, met with them and talked through walk job sites. Like, you gotta put the work in. That's the thing. So now we've systematized all that stuff and all the processes for that, so we can scale that into subdivisions.

Steve: Okay. So

Mike: Did I answer your question? I feel like you're stepping around.

Steve: No. Not at all. So in a way, right, is the networking. It's who you know.

Mike: Yes.

Steve: And I love this answer because, for a lot of those that know me somewhat well Yeah. I'm fairly antisocial. Right? I'm a Yeah. Big time introvert.

It doesn't appear that way on camera, but I'm a big time introvert.

Mike: Sure.

Steve: And so the team kinda last, like, you know, for someone who doesn't like talking to people, Steve sure knows a lot of people. Right? Yeah. Right? Because he's like, hey, I need this.

No problem. I know the guy.

Mike: People would never know that there's six inches of plexiglass between us right now. I'm just kidding.

Steve: Alright. So, the other thing too is and we talked about this a couple of weeks ago with Chris Johns. Right? Yep. Is that it's easy to say I got businesses well, not easy to say, but, you know, we can say, like, I got businesses and my business is doing this, producing that, whatever.

But I argue that the greatest challenge is the people element.

Mike: 100%.

Steve: So you've got multiple businesses. How are you dealing with the people challenges?

Mike: I will tell you this. We we work harder than resourcing the business, like, in a different way. That sounds very bland. I'll explain. So we have a very small team.

I only have six people onshore, plus me, plus four VAs offshore.

Steve: Right. All these companies?

Mike: Yes. Yes. Wow. So we're not we we outsource a lot. Mhmm.

Like, we outsource like, in the manufactured housing, you have to have a license you have to be a licensed dealer to get the product, which is a challenge right now anyway. But you have to be a licensed setup contractor. You have to have a licensed setup contractor that can set the houses. And there's a bunch of, like, things like that. So we just really spend our time focusing on, the who, not the how.

Like, that book was just life changing for me. Like, even figuring out, like, how to be awesome at social media. Like, I'm not gonna, like, do what you do. Like, I'm gonna get the who. Right?

Right. But that's that's really the key. So we run we we are right now positioned where we have figured out in all these different businesses if we want to resource them. And I look at it like a DJ mixer. Right?

You've got 29 knobs. Well, call it 10 or six, whatever my strategies, businesses. If I wanna jam each one up to 10, that's very unfocused.

Steve: Mhmm.

Mike: Unless I think I learned from GE. I watched how they ran multiple business units. Like, you know, you have one in aircraft. You have one in plastic. You have one in air conditioning.

Like, whatever. Like, that wasn't unfocused for them.

Steve: Mhmm.

Mike: Like, I have this argument with people all the time, and it's a good argument. But I think if you put an integrator, like, in each strategy Mhmm. You can we're actually talking about this all the time right now in my business. Like, do we want to throttle these or not? Why don't we look at, the profit margins on different ones?

And also, the biggest thing that I measure now, being at the age I'm at, which I'm not going to mention, is ROE.

Steve: 35.

Mike: 35. Never been kissed. But it's like it's ROE. Right? It's return on effort.

Yeah. Like, I'm pretty sure any of us could probably do just about anything. I mean, are we going to be Elon Musk in sending people to the moon? I'm not. That's too exhausting.

But, if we wanted to, I bet we could. Mhmm. But that's the whole thing. What's the ROE? Like, is it going to just drain the heck out of you for the next five years?

Yeah. So that's what we're looking at all the time. Like, we do Airbnbs. We've got just five. We've got two more that are that we've got planned.

So that'll be seven. Now to get to the five, are we the best at running Airbnbs? No. But we're we're the we're the Pareto Principle. We're we're doing the 80% Mhmm.

Steve: You

Mike: know, to to get it done and get it done profitably. I think that's kinda like that takes a back road. So you're marketing for fix and flips and wholetales, wholesales, whatever, and you see, oh, that one's nice. Let's pick that off. And my strategy for Airbnb's is they have to be high walkability scores and nice properties that we want someone else to pay off.

So anyway, I'm getting all over this.

Steve: Cherry picking.

Mike: Cherry picking. Yeah. I guess my point is you can have multiple strategies or businesses. Like, some are gonna take the front the front focus and the others can be sort of ancillary.

Steve: Mhmm.

Mike: You know, similar to self storage. Right. You know?

Steve: So the other thing too is the partnership component. So you said you'll never do a partnership again. Why is that?

Mike: I will never do a partnership on a business, but I will do partnerships on deals. I'm actually talking through one now for for a really cool project we're talking through. The reason is I just feel like I can work people, like, to death. Like, I mean, I can run circles around people because I really care. And if someone doesn't have the level of commitment that I have, then it's not gonna work, like, for an actual, like, business.

Steve: Right. As far as the core values component.

Mike: Correct. Correct. So I think if you get into partnerships a lot of people do it maybe like how I started. Like, you wanted a security blanket Mhmm. To quit your job.

Or, like, hey, I got someone else I can run stuff off of every day.

Steve: Or split the risk.

Mike: Split the risk. Yep.

Steve: Yep. Yeah.

Mike: So now, I mean, like, you see it now, like, basic partnerships that work well all the time that aren't necessarily a business are a lender and an operator. Right?

Steve: Mhmm. So I

Mike: have private lenders. They're like, they wanna get those returns, but they're they're tired. They don't wanna deal with, like, the guy I dealt with that we just threw off the job.

Steve: They don't necessarily wanna hustle and bustle. They just wanna return.

Mike: Right. They actually call people like me, horses. They're like, let's bet on the horses. We need some horses to put our money out there on the street, you know. But I'm not at the point yet where I want to be an ender lender.

You know, like, I think there's phases of your life.

Steve: Now, one thing that you mentioned, was you took some time off to just focus on building your house. Yes. What compelled you to do that?

Mike: So, I you might know this, Steve, but I don't think your audience knows it. Like, I am super hands on. Like, I am most fulfilled in life when I'm building stuff.

Steve: Mhmm.

Mike: So, if it's Saturday morning and the kids are, like, playing Fortnite with their buddies, because now the kids are old enough, I'm outside with all my tools and my Polaris Ranger driving around my property building stuff. That's that's what relaxes me. I enjoy it. So I said, you know what? I want to do this for my family.

And there's some lessons here for everybody. So here, my kids my boys are now nine and 13. So this was five, six years ago. So do that math. They were little.

I said, Listen. I want to build my own house. Like, that was one of my bucket list items I wanted to do. Now, I ended up buying a lot of land and cleared it all myself, every single tree. Like, it was insane.

It wasn't the most productive thing I didn't know, but I was in heaven. Yeah. Every day I'm out in the woods with my track loader, my chainsaws, Like, just where do I want my driveway? Like, oh, that looks good. Yeah.

Let's bring it around this way, see the lake in the background. So I was I was in heaven. So during that time, we were literally just I only had to work three hours a day because we were getting HUD HomeStore inventory. Mhmm. Just give it to our construction team, like, and then give it to our realtor on our team to sell it.

That's all we did. So it allowed me, for what was supposed to be two years, to be three years to build this awesome place that now is paid for and my family loves it. Now, they do all appreciate it, but this is a learning to be careful for people that might do something similar, is you find out that when the kids are that little, they just want you. They could care less about how nice the house is or whatnot. I was very cognizant not to be like the dad that was never around during those period.

Like, in other words, it's, I'm just gonna take three years and do it and never talk to them.

Steve: Mhmm.

Mike: We spent a ton of time with them, but I mean, they'd come up and visit me and stuff. But, like, it's something you just gotta watch as a business owner because we can all and and even if your thing's not building, but it's like, how do you get, you know, 2,000,000 followers on YouTube or whatever it is, and you're jammed in a room for twenty four hours a day. I mean, you just we gotta be cognizant of it. Well, that's

Steve: something that you and I talked about right before we, started was that, I'm playing basketball, like, a lot now. Right? Three times a week. And I was sharing with my personal trainer. He was complimenting me yesterday, you know, on progress I made.

It's like, and I said to him, like, there's this video by Patrick, by David, wherever you're in his birthday, he compares himself to a younger version of himself. Right? Would I pick 42 year old me or 27 year old me? And for me, that's a tough decision. Like, you know, 27 year old me could take unlimited risk.

Right. Right. 27 year 27 year old me did not need sleep.

Mike: Right.

Steve: Man, if I don't sleep now, it's rough the next day.

Mike: I know. Right? I know.

Steve: I also can't take the same risk. Right? I'm married with kids.

Mike: Yep.

Steve: So but it's it's close, but, you know, I would probably pick 42 year old me because I've got the wisdom.

Mike: Right.

Steve: But in sports, I was thinking 42 year old me versus 32 year old me. Sadly, 42 year old me is in much better shape than 32 year old me because 32 year old me just had a kid.

Mike: Right.

Steve: He's building a business.

Mike: Yes.

Steve: He's grinding, he's not sleeping and, like, health went out the window. Right. Right? So I'm in much better shape and condition now than then, which is going back to your point. Right?

Like, the the the being sure to be present for your kids or whatever. It's right now, maybe you need to be present for your kids, but there's also that component that you can't take your health and, like, let it go, which is kinda what I was doing at that time.

Mike: Right. I know. And I I'll be honest, like, you know, we all work off the, well, I I would try to live by the five f's, you know, like, faith, family, financial freedom, friendship, fitness. Like, if I don't have those in balance, I start getting squirrelly. And right now, I was like a big Crossfitter for years up until COVID hit.

And I just haven't I haven't gotten back. I've gained weight. It's awful. So, like, that's bothering me that my fitness isn't where it was. And, even faith, like, I'm a I you know, we've been going to church on YouTube.

Sounds awful. Yeah. Great services, by the way. And I love, like, we love it.

Steve: Content's great.

Mike: I'm an usher at our local church, and I'm like, I haven't been back since it's been like four months. So, like, you can come back. I I feel terrible. I feel out of balance. So like Yeah.

You know, we all go through those phases in life, I think. Right. I think there's three distinct phases of life. There's the beginner phase where you're like or the education phase. You're learning how like, you asked me earlier.

How did you learn how to do something? How do you do it? I dig in. I find the right people in the crowd and dig in. Then there's the builder phase.

And we're probably all still in the builder phase. I'm probably more in, like, third quarter. You're in, like, probably second quarter if you're looking at a football game. I'm not ready to call it end yet. And then there's the end game, and I know a lot of guys.

Like, I just came back from another mastermind. I call these guys ender lenders.

Steve: Mhmm.

Mike: Because when you become the end game, you might cash in some of your chips, and then you wanna lend it out to guys in the other phase, right, in the builder phase that are operators and horses out on the street. So I really feel that's kinda like the three phases of a real estate investing career.

Steve: Yeah. Absolutely. And I was I was thinking, like, you know, I kinda miss the fun of building something. Right? Because, like, that it's there's more adventure when, like, you're close to failure and you're, like, trying to figure it out and

Mike: you're struggling.

Steve: So, anyway, that's just an aside there. So, on YouTube, Keali Mahal wants to know, when working with wholesalers, do you JV with them or do you buy strictly from them?

Mike: I generally buy strictly from them. I just know that we are good operators with what we're gonna do on the the Dispo side. So I tend to just rather have the asset and decide how I wanna exit it, like, whether we do it as an Airbnb, a fix and flip, or however we wanna do it.

Steve: Got it. Yep. And then do you tell them what you're gonna pay or do they tell you what they want?

Mike: It's a mix. It's a mix. I think, I'll be honest as as someone that'll buy from a wholesaler, and I also am a wholesaler, but I don't enjoy it when people are like, hey, what what would you give me for it? I mean, I'll tell you what I'll give you for it. But, like, do you have any kind of range?

Like, because you might just be so ridiculous, like a terrible negotiator, and this is like 70 k over what I can pay for it. So, like, are we gonna go back and forth like this? Or are you just gonna be like, I'd be happy with this, you know?

Steve: Yeah. Gotcha. So And then, as a cash buyer or flipper, what are you looking for in a wholesaler?

Mike: I'm looking for someone that, is going to be reliable with deals. And it's okay if you're not pumping a ton of volume. That's fine. But just with what you bring, like, understand what my buying criteria is. I mean, everybody, you go to these seminars and they say, you know, go build a buyers list and put out signs on the corners that say, like, deals that are whatever, 40% off, build a buyers list.

That's fine. That's a good way to do it. But just when you like, if you took the time as a wholesaler to meet someone like me that'll buy your stuff And just, like, I hate to say Dunkin' Donuts again because there's only so many jelly sticks a guy can eat in his life. But but seriously, just come meet me and be like, what can I do? Like, where can I fit in?

And listen.

Steve: Mhmm.

Mike: Don't send me stuff, like, nine counties away that's like like, I don't buy anything really built before 1950 Yeah. Because it always turns into a shite show, pardon my French, when we get into a buyer escrow when we're selling it. So unless it's in a really hot historic area, I will do that because of the buy and hold. But, but anyway yeah. Like, really Figure out

Steve: what you want. Understand you and your needs.

Mike: Yeah. And be okay. You know, like, if you wanna do some trial products, sending them to us, like, hey. Is this one gonna work? If so, why not?

That's great. That's how you get feedback and really dial in, you know, and not be so broad with what you're trying to offer people.

Steve: And then has a wholesaler ever screwed you?

Mike: A wholesaler. Let me see. You know, I've been screwed a number of times, like, left, right, up, and down from tons of people, mostly in the construction world. I've had wholesalers try to go around us on deals. I think everyone's had that happen.

I've had wholesalers tell me, Hey, you've got the contract. We spend two hours negotiating it. And they're like, I'm sending the contract over right now. The next thing you know, I see someone else closes on it. Like, the contract never comes.

Like, that only goes so far in a small market. Like, don't. Like, do you

Steve: Well, every market's a small market. Even if the market's gigantic, it's a very small community.

Mike: It is. It is. Like, I think if you just, like, are honest with people, like, listen, Mike. I know we just agreed on this. Got a guy that just came in.

He looks legit. He's gonna give me 5 more grand. I'm not asking you to go 5 more grand, but I gotta do this for my business. Just face the facts and tell me that. I'll be like, alright.

I get it. I'm not happy about it, but Yeah. At least you were, like, an upholding citizen.

Steve: Yeah. And then what are some of your dislikes or hate when you're dealing with a wholesaler? And I'm loving this question from Kelly because she's a wholesaler and she's trying to figure out what flippers want.

Mike: Yeah. I think I think I hate when wholesalers, two things I really hate. When wholesalers wholesale other people's wares all over the local market, the local Facebook groups, and they don't even they're not direct to seller. Now, if you have an agreement with someone to be able to, like, be their marketing arm, that's fine. But I just got actually, it's funny.

You know Jacob Mullins, he's he's a buddy of ours. He he just we just signed. I was in the parking lot. I just Docu signed this cool deal. This thing had been getting passed around like a weed cigarette in my market.

He's not even in my market. He's in Myrtle Beach. And I'm like he calls me. He's like, you buy in that neighborhood. Right?

And I'm like, yeah. I have one across the street for an Airbnb. But anyway, this hit. Our acquisitions guys, it hit me. It hit from 29 different people.

And I kept asking, who is direct to seller? And they're all like, I'm direct to seller. PM me. And then I PM them and, well, I'm working with a local wholesaler on it. I'm like, so you're not direct to seller?

Like, so a so don't lie. That drives me nuts. I mean, the question was, like, what not to do?

Steve: What do you dislike or hate? Like, watch some activities.

Mike: And the second thing I'm sorry. I'm losing my track. So the one is, like, don't market other people's stuff unless you, like, have a legitimate, like, agreement with them. Two is, underwrite the deals a little bit yourselves. Like, don't just tie something up and send it out to see what's going to stick.

Because, like, that

Steve: That's lazy.

Mike: It's so lazy. It's so lazy.

Steve: Yeah.

Mike: At least you know, and I like when wholesalers provide potential extra strategies. They don't have to do our deal. Like, they don't have to do the underwriting for us, but it's nice when they do, kind of Yeah. Like, hey, you know

Steve: It's more professional.

Mike: It is. A lot a lot of the real professional ones will provide, like, a construction estimate too, which is cool. I would always double check it, but.

Steve: I got I see a question from Roger Webb. When you start when you say start off with one thing, can you dig on that a little?

Mike: Yes. So in other words, so right now, you know, we're doing modular housing, manufactured housing. There's differences. We're doing self storage units. We're doing fix and flips, wholesale, full tail, commercial adaptive reuse.

Like, don't do that. Like, that takes years of, like, get proficient at one strategy, whichever one it is. I think most people and probably most of the audience starts with wholesaling. That's fine. And you can be like our friend Darren.

And, I mean, he's just an insane wholesaler. Like, he's amazing. So in other words, do that. Like, get really good at one thing before you get tempted with the shiny penny to add a second. Mhmm.

I think that's the challenge. Like, people look at me and say, hey, you know, I think I think you should focus more on one thing. You know, I'll be like, okay. But that's, like, it's my life and I enjoy doing all these other things, so

Steve: You you enjoy the the the building.

Mike: I do. I do. You know,

Steve: and it's actually something that I I brought up with Gary Harper. Right? Because, you know, he came in for a consult and he's coming out again next month. And I was like, you know, everyone says, you know, focus on one thing. I can't focus on one thing.

And clearly, Gary, you're gonna have to focus on one thing. So tell me about that. And he says, oh, yeah. You can start as many businesses as you want, so long as you have one integrator who's sole focuses that one business. You can't have one integrator for two businesses.

So it's just food for thought. But you gotta

Mike: I agree.

Steve: Focus on one, get it up and running, hire help, someone runs it, then you're allowed to start another company.

Mike: Yes. And to answer to further answer his question, like, pick one that you really enjoy. Like, don't don't pick wholesaling because, like, it's supposed to be the easiest thing to start. I mean, you could argue that if you if you were good at acquiring knowledge, fix and flipping can be pretty straightforward. The thing I like about that is you're buying an asset that's distressed, and you're forcing appreciation by making it nice.

Mhmm. So you know if as long as you do that piece decently and that's where I think people watch Fix and Flip and or Fix This House or whatever. Flip or Flop or FNF or whatever. I'm gonna start swearing here. I gotta stop.

But they watch those shows and they think that they can just come in and do that, and they don't have, like, a quick pro form a, like, on a even a napkin on, you know, Roof 7 Right

Steve: now, just start the work?

Mike: Yes. Yes. So They'll do that. I I sometimes I buy those deals off them after they get themselves in trouble.

Steve: Uh-huh. And Jeremy on YouTube wants to know, looking back, would you still have gotten into all these businesses or just focus on one or two things?

Mike: You know what? That is an awesome question. I I would only you know, that's a great question. It it depends what your goals are. If your goals are to be the highest revenue generating, like, beast on the planet, maybe.

And that fulfills you. I could see maybe doing one or two of them might be a quicker path. I think it would be. If you enjoy like Steve said, I enjoy building things. So, if I was if I'm we talk to my team all the time.

We're just making hamburgers and cheeseburgers. You want that? You want Martin Farmhouse finishes or you want brushed nickel? Hamburger, cheeseburger. If I do that for twenty years, I'm gonna go nuts.

Like, and that that's why I started adding other things because I have other interests. Right. So I really think it's what you, you know

Steve: Well, And I think also if you look at, generally speaking, right, the profile of a person that's a starts one business because they like doing things.

Mike: Yes.

Steve: Right? The person that starts a business is not the kind of person that's doing the same thing all day, every day. No. I think it just it's just a a natural built in, what's the word, disposition, like, who you are.

Mike: Right. Yeah. And I think you said something earlier in this discussion that's huge that I just kinda realized, like light bulb two years ago, and I'm not the best at it either, is it's all if you're going to create businesses, and you got to find the right people. Like, if you're the best if you could if any of these people listening or watching could just find the best way to hire, screen, and manage people, you're gonna skyrocket. Like, skyrocket.

These have been challenges for us.

Steve: And I

Mike: say us. I mean, me and now my wife Jean's working with us. But I mean, it's like

Steve: Everybody.

Mike: Everybody. Yeah. I mean, it's just and I'm a little scared on, like, the even my 13 year old. Like, what's the attention span of this next generation? I'm scared.

I could kinda dig in somewhere and do something. Right?

Steve: I don't know. You just gotta keep them engaged somehow, someway.

Mike: Yeah. Yep.

Steve: Yeah. Alright. So, what is your biggest struggle right now as you're running through all these different businesses?

Mike: My biggest struggle is really how to resource them. Again, getting it's really what we were just talking about. Getting getting the right people in the right roles to help grow them. We've been getting when I say we, now it's so my wife Jean came aboard in March, left the corporate world. She's our COO now.

So really what's cool about that is like Jean and I are building our own dynasty, right? We don't have to, I'm pretty sure with a level of certainty after seventeen years of marriage, I'm not gonna screw her over and she's not gonna screw me over in business or whatever. But it's really just getting clear on what we wanna go to. I mean, we've got at least three, four more years of straight hustle. And then it's like, do we move more towards passive?

So what we're doing now, which is what's driving the number of businesses is a good part of these businesses are active businesses and some of these are passive businesses or assets. So, I'm really just making money in, like, the fix and flips, the wholesale, the wholetail, manufactured home, modular. And I'm buying self storage. I'm buying, you know, putting them into these adaptive reuse commercial projects, monthly cash flow. Like, that's we really do would rather like, that's where I want to be and that's the

Steve: age

Mike: of my life we're in.

Steve: So going back to sourcing talent, what are you doing to get better at sourcing talent?

Mike: Alright. So that book, The Who, Not the How, has been huge. Dan Sullivan. I was trying to I for years, I thought I was a decent guy creating ads. Some of our mastermind groups put out, use this to get acquisitions, use this to get this.

That's great. Works for some people. I was running stuff on Indeed. Dating myself years ago, I was rolling stuff on Craigslist. Now people are like, What is that cool, the tool?

It wasn't named after a guy. But anyway, that was just not getting the quality of talent that we needed. Indeed, we've hired people off. It's been good. Now I said, hey.

It's a who, not a how. So I use a recruiter and just but not one, I don't know. I'll mention him. Darren Carr, he's a great guy. Mhmm.

We've hired our last three people through him, and he's got a nice compensation structure for him, his company, that's not it doesn't break the bank. And they do a really nice job because they know how to talk to a hundred, hundred and ten people. They provide you a report every week. Mhmm. Spoke to a 110.

Know, it's just like us trying to get deals. Right?

Steve: They got their own KPIs.

Mike: Yeah. They got their own KPIs. So that's what I would do. And and you'd be surprised, even if you're starting out in the business, you can afford these guys. Like, they're they're not ridiculous.

Steve: Alright. I'll have to check them out. Yeah. And then, now that you've read who not how, have you checked out Strategic Coach?

Mike: I have not been a Strategic Coach. Have you

Steve: checked it out? Like, have you looked into it?

Mike: I have looked into it. It looks it looks pretty awesome. I've I've always, had friends that have shared some of the concepts of it with me, like having a focus day and buffer days in your week, which was, like, super cool. So, like, say Monday's a buffer day, you get everything ready so that Tuesday is, like, a straight focus day with no distractions because you've got all your stuff. I think it I think it would be awesome.

Steve: So Yeah. I've gone through it, so I was gonna say I highly recommend if you haven't if you're thinking about it.

Mike: Oh, okay.

Steve: Yeah. What is your why?

Mike: Alright. So everybody has seen Wheel of Fortune. Right?

Steve: Mhmm.

Mike: I love that show. God bless Vanna. But, at the end, there's a puzzle. Right? And they all get r s t l n e.

Mhmm. Are there five consonants and vowels or whatever? And then they get to pick three. So, everyone that comes on these podcasts says, It's God and it's my family.

Steve: Mhmm.

Mike: Right? So let's just make that our R, S, T, L, and E. Mhmm. Of course, it's that. But really, my why is, like, we were all given the same twenty four hours a day, and we were all given, I mean, everyone started different places, had different backgrounds.

But, like, to not optimize your potential in this world is such a short blip. Like, I have four or five people that I know in my network that passed away in the last thirty to fifty days. Like, whether it was COVID related, heart attacks, or whatever. And I'm like, Man, did they ever live to what they thought was their, like, optimum self? And I that bugs me every day.

That's my why. I mean, you know, we'll leave a legacy for the kids. And like I said, that's the RST LNA.

Steve: But even if you do, is it the beginning of legacy? Right? That's kinda what you're saying. Like, are you doing everything that you can possibly do?

Mike: Right. And it's not comparing yourself to everybody else on social media or in mastermind groups or in or whatever. Right? Because that's that's very depressing, I think, for a lot of people. I mean, I've had those days where I'm like, wow.

We didn't do that well this month. And then I'd, like, I just bought 7,000 apartment units. And I'm like, do I suck?

Steve: I don't know. I don't do that on a regular basis.

Mike: Yeah. But then you find out some and then there's those people that are like, I own point 0429% of 400 units. And you're like, alright. So what what does that mean? Yeah.

Like, that's cool, right, for that person? I don't know.

Steve: You know what's interesting though?

Mike: I think

Steve: that there's different ways of approaching that. Right? Because I see some other people's success as like, man, that's really cool for them. Yeah. How can I repeat that?

Mike: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

Steve: That's how I take it. I never like, oh, man, I suck or like, man, they're lucky or they don't deserve like, there's never any of that. It's always like, wow. That's possible. How can I do that?

Maybe I'll give them a call and figure out how they did that.

Mike: Right. Yeah. And, you know, and here's the thing that's not told. Right? Everybody's got terrible days.

Oh, yeah. Like, they every every one of us that are hard chargers Mhmm. Has gotten the you know what kicked out of them, gotten the door smashed in their face, had, like, deals fall through. I mean, it's that's the reality. Right?

Yeah. So that's how I look at it too. When I see our friends on, like, social media doing that, I'm, like, happy for them. Because I'm, like, I know the struggle it took to do that.

Steve: Mhmm. Absolutely.

Mike: So but you gotta figure out what what you wanna do personally, because not everybody needs to be that to be fulfilled.

Steve: Right.

Mike: And I think that's my biggest challenge as a person. You know? It's like, when is enough enough? When am I fulfilled? Like, we're constantly asking those questions.

Right?

Steve: You know? And I think, because, was it Damon? Damon, were you in my room, as the last CG here? I don't

Mike: think so.

Steve: There was Doug and Damon in there. And Damon kinda talked about, like, you know, like, having really, like, crazy, crazy success, but do I keep going or do I slow down? Like, what do I do? And I think that's the challenge of every single achiever. It's like, man, all the success.

I keep going. You just gotta slow down. And it's I don't know how to slow down. And, honestly, I think just from from my observations, slowing down just leads to other problems.

Mike: Man, what happens when Tom Brady retires. Right? Yeah. He's gonna be a mess. He's he's so used to being the goat.

Right. I mean, they say that all the time with the guys in, like, professional sports. They just, they're like, how do I fulfill

Steve: this?

Mike: Mhmm. Some termed drugs and alcohol, not not by choice, but they're well, I guess, it's by choice. But I mean, they just it sucks them in because they can't get that feeling of whatever back.

Steve: You know? It's crazy. Yeah. So I think I'm with you here. Right?

Like, I mean, if someone who was I talking to? But it was someone else. Right? At the event, they're like, you know, like, when is it time to retire? Like, do people like us retire?

Mike: No. I think for me, it's like getting tons of monthly there's no such thing as straight passive. I mean, maybe holding notes. You had Eddie in here. He's the man.

That's probably the most passive you're gonna get, holding notes. But, I mean, even owning storage units or owning rentals, there's there's some work to be done. But the point is, if you've if you if everyone listening can get, you know, it's kind of the life in air model. Right? I love that.

Like, just figure out what your monthly budget is and what you what your expenses are, then figure out how to replace that. And, you know, and obviously figure out what you love to do every day. But once the basics are taken care of, then it's like, heaven for me isn't going to be full retirement. It's going to be like, Hey, I got this idea for a super cool treehouse Airbnb, like, over this pond, and that's what I'm gonna build. I'm gonna roll out there in the track loader, and I'm gonna, like, throw rope up and pull up timbers.

And I'm like, dude, I'm in heaven. And I'm gonna drink a beer

Steve: at the

Mike: end of the day and go, that was freaking awesome. Right. Yeah. So I think I don't think it's a struggle for you.

Steve: I mean, I think it feels like a struggle, but honestly, I think I think you already know what you want.

Mike: I I do. But I'll tell you, so being in these mastermind groups, the first couple years, I was really struggling with looking at what everyone else is doing and trying to emulate some of that. And I was watching my own performance go down because I wasn't clear on what I wanted. But I was trying to get clear. I was talking to people.

You know, I've never really sought out a really good coach. Like, I feel like, if I wanted a really good coach, they would have to have some legit experience for me to want to follow them. Like, I don't want someone trained as a coach, and they're like, you know, like, I want someone that actually does. Mhmm. You know, like, you're where I want to be.

Yeah. Like, so it's a it's a it's a it's like mentor or coach or both. I don't know.

Steve: So I would argue that's a limiting belief.

Mike: Okay.

Steve: I would also argue I have shared that same exact limiting belief. Okay. Right? Because there's all these different EOS coaches. Right?

Or or whatever coach is out there.

Mike: Right.

Steve: There's no limit to how many coaches you can you can hire. Right? Right.

Mike: But

Steve: I personally picked Gary Harper because I know if it's not Gary, I won't listen to them.

Mike: Yes. Yes.

Steve: It's like, you can't give me advice because you're not actually in my world.

Mike: Right. Right. He's not relevant.

Steve: Yeah. And so, it's probably not true, but at the same time, I know myself. I won't believe you if you haven't done it.

Mike: Right. Like, some people say, like, if like, Brent Cardone, I think you can get him to personally mentor you for, like, a $100 or a $150. Yeah. It's got to

Steve: be more than that.

Mike: I know. I didn't think it was that bad. And I'm like, I'm looking at it like Sharon Lechter, you know, Rich Dad Poor Dad, same thing. She's like she's like one fifty, 200. But I'm like, man, like, if you really believe and you're gonna get that ROI and just where they're gonna introduce you to, like, even maybe bring you into some of their deals, I mean, pretty crazy thought.

Steve: Yeah. So So, how do you stay motivated?

Mike: That's a great question. I think for me, I spend at least one day a week out in the field because I'm a hands on guy. So I like to get out there. Like, we've had people not show up to put a driveway in. I bought a new track loader this year, put my country music on, put on my HVAC, sit in there, put it in a driveway.

Like, I think between that and really just getting clear on our end goals, and when I say hours, I'm talking Gene and I as a couple, like, where are we going? What do we want to be? That's really my motivation. And by learning something new all the time is what keeps me going. It really is.

Yeah.

Steve: And what is your superpower?

Mike: I think my superpower is really, relationships, people. I don't know if you agree. I mean, I I I don't I've never had someone tell me, hey, your superpower is x. I know if you're a strategic coach guy, then it's the unique ability or whatever is kind of similar.

Steve: Yep.

Mike: But I think it is people and relationships. Like, you could throw me in a room with anybody and I'm gonna be, like, getting along with them.

Steve: You're gonna be giving them a giant bear hug.

Mike: Yeah. Yeah. And, you know, I am a promoter, in the P I N X. I am a promoter and I'm not really other than raising money, I don't think I'm really using that skill set. Mhmm.

That I think I'd like to explore a little bit more in the next coming years.

Steve: Yeah. Definitely getting really, tuned in on your unique ability. It makes a big, big difference. The unfortunate thing then and the fortunate thing now is that when I discovered my unique ability, which is teaching, that was not very profitable owning a brokerage.

Mike: Right.

Steve: Very profitable than the direction I am now as a trainer.

Mike: Yes. Yeah. So I think I think you're right. Yeah.

Steve: So But, yeah. I think if you can get tuned in with your unique ability, it's huge. Is what is the greatest lesson you ever learned?

Mike: The greatest lesson I ever learned other than I'll tell you what, this kind of plays into the, I would say, you know, what I should have done more of, I felt that, like, you look back and you beat yourself up. Right? But 2006, 2007 when I was starting, I should have bought more assets. I mean, you know, buy assets and don't get too fat.

Steve: That's what

Mike: everybody says. That is for real. I mean, I have friends that bought 160, 200 units in 2007. They got free and clear somehow by flipping them or selling a few. By twenty fourteen, fifteen, they got all this time.

Like, I have some of that going on too, but it's just I should have done more of that Yeah. Than, looking for the quick dollars. So if you're a fix and flipper or wholesaler now, my biggest advice, don't buy the Lambo unless you can buy the Lambo off cash flow. That's fine. Yeah.

But and if you really like Lambos, it's fine. I like Lambos. But, like, take the money and buy something that's gonna build your future or secure. Right now, I got another friend. He just told me a twenty twenty one or two mobile home parks.

He he talked himself into selling, like, $5,560,000,000 dollars worth of them. He's like, man, I am screwed right now. And I said, why? You got all this cash. He goes, because what's going on with the administration and our economy?

I'm losing 12% a year on my idle cash because of inflation.

Steve: Mhmm. And

Mike: that was like, woah, man. That was insane. I'm like, you know, because everyone a year ago was like, go to cash. Go to cash. Go to cash.

Gotta take advantage of the economy dying. Well, now you've gotta be in hard assets or your cash is worth nothing in, like, three weeks. It's crazy.

Steve: Yeah. I mean, that's a little bit like like Venezuela.

Mike: Yes. Yes. Or Greece. Yes.

Steve: And I do remember, right, as a realtor in 2007, 2008, I'm showing these properties, and I'm selling them for 30,000, 50,000. My records, I have four properties I sold as a realtor. Right? One for 10,500. Yep.

17,000, 15,000, 19,000. Right? These are properties I sold.

Mike: Yeah.

Steve: As a realtor. And I was thinking, God, it sucks that I'm a broke realtor. Because I know if I can buy these, this will work out in the long run. I know that as a fact. Yeah.

I'm a broke realtor.

Mike: I tell you what. I didn't

Steve: do anything about it.

Mike: I'm looking for portfolios of cash flow to buy now. Like, just that's what I'm looking for. I was looking at 67 units the other day. Like, how what can I get that for? How can I get it?

Because you get all the depreciation benefits. Right? If you're running a a total cash business, off of, like, fix and flips, wholesales, or whatever, you need to instead of writing Uncle Sam a check every year, you need to, like, have a 60 unit whatever and do a cost segregation study or whatever to force depreciation to not have to write that check. Right?

Steve: Right.

Mike: So I think most of the viewers right now are going, you guys are either over my head, or this sounds impossible, or no, I'm doing that. But you can do that. I would partner with someone, get real professional and serious about what you're doing. And if you wanna get into some of the bigger stuff, then, you know, partner on some give them a piece of the deal to get those assets. Mhmm.

Yeah. That's a big learning. I'm looking at syndicating now too because, like, I think that's gonna go bigger quicker.

Steve: Knowing now if I knew then what I know now, I could have acquired those properties. Right? It would have been a simple call to a hard money lender.

Mike: Right.

Steve: I didn't know these things. Right?

Mike: No. I was just again, I was just a realtor. That that's it. I know you we don't know what we don't know, but in the hindsight can can you live with yourself in hindsight? I guess that's the challenge.

Steve: Right? Totally fine. I'll survive.

Mike: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. That's true.

Steve: What was your favorite best or most interesting failure?

Mike: My most interesting failure. You know, I'll I'll be very, open and transparent. One of them, other than having a partner, one of them was really just a few years ago. We bought a house from a wholesaler. And this just tells you, man, you could have fifteen, twenty years experience or whatever, and this stuff still happens to you.

But we just bought this older house. This was a pre it was a 1912 built house. Oh my gosh. Just it flooded in the basement. It had a tree fall on it after we fully renovated it.

We renovated parts of it three times because the project manager we had hired on our team internally, our construction manager, wasn't watching what they're doing. They ripped out all the wind replaced all the windows, then they, like, took all the antique moldings while they replaced the windows. So now I have no moldings inside or out, so that's another, like, $10. Like, it just kept getting worse and worse. Had a roof put on.

They ran out of shingles, so, like, they did the backside in a different color, and we didn't see it till we put it on the market. And, like, literally, I drove by one day, and some a a tree branch fell and ripped the electrical off the side of the house, and it was on fire. And I said to myself, do I just let it burn, baby? Like, freaking burn. And then I'm like, I can't.

It'll come back to me on insurance. So, you know, we go to we're putting the the flames out, but we did lose. Like, I lost, like, $80.85 grand on that. You put out that fire with a fire

Steve: with a hose?

Mike: I did. It was going up the side of the building, like, on the siding. It wasn't that big yet. Oh. But I I wanted to go just throw, like, two gallons of 93 octane on it and just watch it burn.

But that house just sucked the life out of us, you know. But

Steve: It's that it's the opposite of the Pareto rule. It's the sum of 1% of 1% or whatever, and it's just a disaster.

Mike: But talk about doing the right thing, man. I had a private lender on that, and literally, that was like an equity deal I had worked with them, and they would have, like, not gotten a good return, probably lost some money. So instead, what I did is I just gave them a huge return, and I just took it as a write off on our taxes. So, like, you know, I kept that relationship with him, and then he sold me a warehouse. So, like, it was kinda cool later on.

But, like, I think you gotta do that kinda stuff. Like like, don't don't violate your core even if core values, even if something bad goes sideways.

Steve: Even if it's easy to.

Mike: Yeah. Yep.

Steve: And people would forgive you for it, but it's still not right with you.

Mike: Right. Right. That's exactly right.

Steve: What book have you gifted more than any other?

Mike: You know, I'm gonna go with a different one. Secrets of the Millionaire Mind, T. Harv Eker. Mhmm. That was a really good book.

I think it was T. Harv Eker.

Steve: It was?

Mike: Yeah. It was

Steve: a great book. Yeah.

Mike: Fantastic book. Yeah. I just love that, man. I love that someone could grow up, like, with parents that just mistreated money. And you could literally go through this process to reprogram your mind to, like, attract money instead of pushing it away.

Steve: I

Mike: just, I don't know that. That book has resonated with me. And it's super simple read. It's only like a half inch thick.

Steve: It's simple simple read, simple to listen to.

Mike: Yep.

Steve: Alright. The thing that was hard for me was that my wife was telling me all those things Yep. And I wasn't listening to her.

Mike: They're always right, Steve.

Steve: I know. And then I read the book or listened to the book together. I was like, hey, you say that. It's like, oh, now you'll listen to it.

Mike: It's like That's kinda like a who not has my new one. I've like I've been referencing that for like six months now.

Steve: So I'm only thinking about something you wanna leave the last the listeners with while I make it just a couple of quick announcements. Guys, if you have value today, please like, subscribe, share, comment, leave us a five star review on iTunes. The more we can share this and reach more people, the more millionaires we can create. We do have our, two and a half day live event coming up next week. If you guys are interested, go to disruptors.com/workshop.

It's you get to see my team in operation. You guys actually get to ask them questions, while while they're actually working. So two and a half days in our office. And with that, what thoughts would you like to leave the listeners with?

Mike: You know, I'd I'd just like to tell everybody whatever whatever, level you're at in your career, like, even if you've got a job now and you wanna be in real estate, just take action. I think, like, literally, like, anyone that takes action is going to fail forward and keep going. You might you want failure fast. Right? You want it as quick as you can get to it.

It's like going to a seller and getting your first no.

Steve: Mhmm.

Mike: Like, you're setting the anchor in your life. Right? Just take action. And don't don't get overwhelmed by everybody else's successes or whatever because they probably all have a story. Yeah.

So I don't know. That would be my number one.

Steve: Awesome. Awesome. And if someone wanted to get a hold of you, how would they do that?

Mike: Yep. I've got my website as optimisticcapital.com or, Michael t Moulton on Instagram. That's probably the best way.

Steve: You know, I didn't get a chance to ask. What is Optimistic Capital?

Mike: So that is our, that's my website for raising funds to do these bigger projects we're doing as we're putting stuff into our passive, passive library of assets.

Steve: Awesome. Awesome. Very cool. Thank you so much. Yeah.

Mike: Thanks, Steve.

Steve: So fun.

Mike: It was awesome, man.

Steve: Thank you guys for watching. See you all next week.