Grant Kemp Shares How To Boost Your Conversion Rate Through Subject 2 and Creative Financing

Steve Trang: Hey, everyone. Thank you for joining us for today's episode of Real Estate Disruptors. We got a very special episode. We got Grant Kemp coming in from Dallas.

Grant Kemp: Is that right?

Steve: Yeah. From Dallas. And he's with creativecashflow.com. And he's here to share how he's increased his conversion rate by adding creative financing to his business. If this is your first time tuning in, I'm Steve Trang, broker owner of Stunning Homes Realty, founder of the OfferFast Homes app, the only MLS for off market wholesale properties.

And I'm on a mission to create 100 millionaires. So if that's something you're interested in, let's definitely connect on Instagram. And I do have an announcement at the end of the day's show. There will be free shirts involved, so don't tune out. And if you're excited for today's show, please give me a wave.

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I'm super ready. Alright. Awesome. So how did you get into real estate?

Grant: So my my story is somewhat shared with a lot of folks that I'm sure are listening here, which is that I don't come from money. I didn't nobody in my family has money. And so when I was getting into the real estate side of things, you know, my Google search of what I needed to do was, like, how do you make money in real estate when you have no money? Right? Like, what do you do?

And, obviously, a lot of people choose to go into wholesaling, for that reason, not having the capital, but I really gravitated. I was super attracted by the seller financing side of things, subject to and and creative strategies just really kinda clicked something in my brain. So, so, yeah, that's just kinda what I, what I did. So our first our my first purchase of a home ever was with my wife. We bought a duplex I've come to find that's called house hacking where you live in half and rent half kind of thing.

And then one beautiful we actually became really good friends with our tenant on the other side. One beautiful night, my tenant uttered the the words that we all love to hear, which were, I'm just ready to let my other house go back to the bank. And I was like, wait. I know this trigger word. So I bought her house Sub 2.

That was my first actual, like, investment investment property. I bought that Sub 2, flipped it out as a, as a wrap. I netted about $8 on the down payment, and I made about $375 a month, on cash flow from that. And the beautiful thing about that is when you're doing creative financing, we're we're the bank. We don't have tenants toilets and trash.

So that's a true, like, that $3.75 was a net number. That's not a gross number that you have to take expenditures out of or anything like that. So I got started there. Make a long story long, just kinda, you know, hit the ground running, quit my job, said my my job is getting in the way of me making more money in real estate. So I quit my job after only having done three deals, which is not what I recommend.

But, you know, hey, jump in the net will appear. Within the first, twelve months, I was I was consistently buying seven or eight properties a month, subject to, and, just kinda took off from there. Ended up opening up Texas Pride Lending, which did the origination and the R RMLO work, all the compliance stuff for seller financing. We grew that to be the largest RMLO operation in the nation within two years, and I sold that company, and here we are. Now I'm I realized I owned a brokerage.

I wasn't an investor anymore. And so I'd I, got back into the investing side. Now I do the training side. And there's my story in a way too long nutshell.

Steve: So when did you jump in? Like, when did you start doing sub two?

Grant: So I my first so I quit my job to go full time, November 2012. And so I had done my first deals, at the at the beginning part of that year and part of 11.

Steve: Okay. So 2011, 2012. Our Facebook feed looks kinda funny. Hopefully, that's not affecting everybody. Okay.

So you jump in. You you're you're doing searches on sub two.

Grant: Mhmm.

Steve: And then you just hit the ground running. How were you finding your sub twos, like, when you first started?

Grant: So, you know, it's funny. I look at, I actually found so I moved offices July or something last year. So I'm, you know, fighting all of my my crap in the in the in the cabinets and stuff. And I found one of my very first marketing pieces with direct mail. This is the short answer of what you're saying is it was direct mail.

But, it was funny because, you know, we've got so many people right now in Dallas, and I don't know, I know Phoenix is blowing up too. And I don't know if you guys are watching this may fall into this category, but I've got so many people that are just like, oh my gosh. Like, days on market are fourteen. I don't know what I've got do. Like, people are freaking out.

Like, everything's falling. My house has been on the market for three weeks. And, like, my first marketing piece or one of my first marketing pieces I had, which, by the way, got the FBI called on me. I can tell you that story too, but I actually had to do an FBI interview off of this piece. I put a pizza towel in an in an envelope because I wanted them to feel it, right,

Steve: and

Grant: open it.

Steve: Love email.

Grant: And, yeah. And, and it said, you know, feeling underwater? I'm here to help you dry off. I'm super corny. But it said the average days on market was six months.

Right? And so, you know, that's that kind of market is so good for creative financing in sub two because when we do have that turn, right, that's when you can just eat up properties with that kind of thing. So, to answer your question directly, sending out direct mail, trying to touch people as in many ways that I could, that way through through direct marketing and, just taking the inbound calls and going on the appointments. And then also JV ing with other wholesalers was actually really where I got my volume from, because there's so many wholesalers that because, you know, you know, when you're buying cash, which I buy cash too, but when you're buying cash, you gotta buy at a big discount. You gotta be at $70.75 cents or whatever.

That's not the case with creative financing. So wholesalers, people like me are a great tool for wholesalers because wholesalers, if your buyer or if your seller owes too much or or, is requiring too high of a price, Mhmm. You can't move. But somebody like me can move. And so I I started partnering with a lot of wholesalers, working their dead leads.

That way, you know, my my phrase was this way you can pay for your marketing campaign out of your trash can.

Steve: Right.

Grant: And, so that's really where I got my volume from was javing with other people who were not able to close the types of deals that we can and sending out direct, direct mail marketing.

Steve: Gotcha. So what were some of your early struggles then?

Grant: Not having money any money and not having any knowledge and just having to grow both of them at the same time. I, my I'm not exaggerating. This is not a, people will think I'm cool if I say this kind of phrase, which I think people hear guys like us say these things, and they just automatically they're like, oh, yeah. That's the story that people tell. I I legitimately averaged fifteen hours a day for the first, eighteen to twenty months of my career, seven days a week.

I was literally showing houses Christmas morning, because to be successful in this business, you've gotta either have, time, knowledge, or money. Mhmm. Right? So I didn't have money. I was gaining knowledge.

What I had to leverage to make money in this business was my time. And so I had to hustle the crap out of it and make that happen. So that was a struggle, of just handling life when you're working that hard constantly and and trying to figure all the things out and make all the right connections.

Steve: So when you're talking about showing houses, what is that about?

Grant: So, you know, I'll I'll buy a house sub two and then sell it as a wrap mortgage. Right? And so, this one Christmas in particular, you know, I had two or three houses that were available. And, and and literally, I had a a a buyer with 20 or $25,000 down, and they wanted to look at houses on Christmas morning. And I'm like, okay.

You know, you do what it takes. Right? Like Right. That's that's what's gonna go on. So I was showing this house.

And, you know, made the sale and and got some money out of it. So that was good. But,

Steve: So you you quit your job. What was you what what were you doing?

Grant: IT. I did automation for a stock company.

Steve: Okay. So you quit your job, and you're doing this. And you're running as a one man show for how long?

Grant: Not very. So I've man, I've been so blessed. God's opened so many doors for me in so many ways. So there's a there's a an attorney out of, Dallas that his name's Scott Horn. He's kind of the preeminent Texas attorney for creative financing.

So, when I was I think

Steve: I met him. Have you? I think I met him as a strategic coach in Santa Monica.

Grant: I doubt it. He's not a big traveler, in the times that I've known. I have to look back. Okay. Great.

Like, silver gray hair, kinda short. Really? Okay. Yeah.

Steve: Yeah.

Grant: Super great guy. I mean, the dude is just freaking brilliant. He really is. But as I was doing my, like, how do you make money with no money searches and, like, you know, creative financing pops up and I'm like, oh, sub to. And I'm trying to figure that out.

And so I'm on bigger pockets trying to fit and just time and time and time and time and time and time again, everybody's like, dude, you gotta talk to the Scott Horn guy. So I bugged the crap out of him for, months. And, I finally got a meeting with him, where he allowed

Steve: me to come in. And, you know,

Grant: again, an opened door was was I left that meeting with a key to the building and an office. Right? And so it was just like, okay. Let's do this. Right?

So he allowed me to come in and learn under him and get things going. So I was really only on my own on my own for a couple of months. You know, when I quit my job, I, it was the week before Thanksgiving, and, I spent, you know, the the next few weeks realizing what a stomach ulcer feels like. And, and then I finally, you you know, got that meeting and got in, and that's where I was really able to gain some traction. So the lesson there being for anybody listening is, if you want success in real estate, there are guys who, you know, similar like what I just said, you know, I I work a lot with with wholesalers that can't, you know, get their deals done.

That's how I got started was finding someone who had the yin to my yang. Right? I had time. To make to make money or to make deals work, you've gotta have time, knowledge, and money. So I found a guy that had knowledge and money, and I gave him my time and traded that to make money together, you know.

Steve: So you guys were working as a partnership? Was he underneath you?

Grant: Yeah. And, yeah. I I came in and I told Scott, you work for me now, dude. This this building is mine. Right.

Yeah. No. So I came in, under the agreement of, I'm gonna bust my ass for you and and just please be my resource. Within six months, we formed an actual partnership partnership with him and another guy. We were all equal partners, 33% owners.

The other guy ended up stealing a bunch of money from us, and so we, let that go. But then, you know, ended up bringing somebody else in. And so Yeah. We we ran as a a three person partnership for a few years, then we ran as just me and Scott for a few years, and then, he and I just split last year just because, you know, there's there was no longer like, now I have knowledge and money and don't have time. And so, like, we were both the same guy.

And so, you know, it just wasn't really a partnership that made sense. We split amicably, still closed with them and stuff. But

Steve: yeah. Awesome. Alright. So you talked about, well, let's talk about how you're finding these sub two deals first. So what are you doing to find these sub two deals?

Grant: So sub two deals actually are are in all of the lead sources you're already looking for. It's just training your ear to understand those phrases of willingness. Right? So, basically, you're not gonna subdue a probate. You're not as likely to subdue a VA loan.

VA loans are very difficult because the seller of a VA loan wants to use that VA loan again. Got that eligibility. Right? And so they're they're unwilling to leave that in place for you. But every other mortgage type and every other free and clear property is a candidate for sub two or creative financing.

Steve: You ever run into the issue with FHA?

Grant: Well, so okay. So the you can't get a title insurance policy on a government backed loan. So, I say you can't get. Most title companies will not do a title insurance policy on a government backed. So FHA, VA, USDA.

Mhmm. However, I don't get an insurance policy, a title insurance policy on any of my sub twos. Here's the thing. And so, you know, we can flash our, like, I am not a lawyer. We we do not represent you.

Don't, you know Yeah.

Steve: Where's the giant asterisk for us? Giant asterisk for a

Grant: second right? But here's the thing so you think about title policies right and and I like doing this like when I'm speaking in front of a large crowd because it it really it really. Drives the point home. But we can do this digitally. You can digitally raise your hand for me.

Okay? Digitally raise your hand in some way. And how many people roundabout do we have 30. Watching. Okay.

So we got about 30 people watching. Digitally raise your hand for us, comment or whatever if you've ever actually had to use your title policy. Okay? Okay. And what was that claim for?

Was it for under $5,000, or was it a big one?

Steve: I don't even know. Title insurance just took care of it.

Grant: Okay. So 99 Well,

Steve: we've done a lot of transactions. Right. Right.

Grant: Right. 99% of the time, you're never gonna have to use a title insurance policy.

Steve: Mhmm.

Grant: Of that 1%, 99% of those times, the claim is for under $5,000. Okay? Title insurance policy is a thousand bucks.

Steve: Mhmm.

Grant: $1,200, maybe 800 depending on where, you know, where your market is and and what things cost. So when you're doing volume, right, you're doing sub two. Like, we're buying six, seven, eight houses a month. I'm gonna round up to make myself sound cool and say 10, but really, it's just because of math. So if you're doing 10 houses a month and it's a thousand dollars a a policy, right, that's a lot of money in the year.

Mhmm. Right? I'm not very good at math, but it's more than $5,000. So when you're doing these large volumes, it's like self insuring. Right?

By not getting the policy Mhmm. Yes. You're betting a little bit that you're not gonna have to make that claim. But we you just really I mean, it just barely ever comes up. So the thing that I'm getting at here is, when you when you're when you're when you're doing this business, FHA and VA not being able to get insured really doesn't hinder me because I wasn't gonna get the policy anyway.

Nothing says you can't subdue it. Right? You you can still subdue the deal. You're just not gonna be able to get it insured,

Steve: policy wise. So is Dallas or is Texas a title state or a, or a lawyer state or an escrow office?

Grant: Yeah. A lawyer. You can close with your lawyer office.

Steve: So you close with the lawyer's office? Mhmm. Gotcha. Okay. I'm just curious because, you know, there's if you don't have title insurance, who's closing it?

Because here we're a title state.

Grant: Right. Right. Yeah. So are you required to close at a title company here?

Steve: I don't know if we're required, but that's what's done here.

Grant: Right. So everybody so most people, like, kinda default to closing a title company. So Right. Which is not bad. And let me be very clear too when I say that.

If you're going to buy a house with cash or you're gonna put significant cash on the line, get the title policy. But here's the next step of me not doing title policies. When you're buying a sub two house, right, you may be taking over on a mortgage. Maybe. That is sub two.

You're taking over on a mortgage. They may be 5 or $6,000 behind. Right? So you you catch up 5 or $6,000 to their payments. Maybe you gotta put in another $10,000 worth of work.

So you're $15,000 in in cash. The title policy costing a thousand or $1,500 is 10% of your cash output. You're paying 15 or 1,500 to protect $15,000. Right? So there's a little bit of that side of things too, where it's like, you know, we've got such a low capital need in these.

A ton of my deals. I'll buy sub two. They're caught up. Right? And you you you may not you can sell it as is.

You may not have any cash in the deal. Right. So to pay a thousand bucks to protect that

Steve: So you use an attorney? Yes. And they'll still record a deed transfer?

Grant: Or Of course.

Steve: Yes. Okay.

Grant: Yeah. Yeah. So we're gonna do for sub two, and and just to kind of unpack sub two a little bit if anybody's watching and and and is kind of unfamiliar with what we're talking about. Sub two is short for the phrase, I'll buy your house subject to the underlying mortgage stake in place sentences. Right?

That's that's what that stands for. Meaning that, essentially, we're gonna take over on payments. And I don't ever want you to say take over on payments to the seller because it implies that they don't have any responsibility moving forward, and that's not true. Mhmm. But a mortgage and are you a a mortgaged, or do you do, note and deed of trust in in we're

Steve: a deed of trust. Okay.

Grant: So we've got three policy or three documents that go into a home purchase with a loan. You've got the the warranty deed gives you ownership of the property. Mhmm. The note says, hey. You owe me a $100,000 for the next thirty years.

And the deed of trust says, hey. If you don't pay me that, I'm gonna take the house back from you. Right. Right? So with subject to, we're getting deeded the property.

The warranty deed is gonna go to Steve Drain. Mhmm. But we're not gonna touch the note in the deed of trust. We're just gonna continue making those payments on their behalf. Right.

Steve: Well, I'm asking this because, typically, what we do with VA is we do a contract for deed.

Grant: Okay. Yeah. Oh, yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

Yeah. And if you're in a state that does allow you to do contract for deed, that's great. Okay. Do contract for deed. Contract for deed is an excellent tool.

Texas, we got contract for deed taken away from us, 2006.

Steve: Alright. You wanna explain what contract for deed is?

Grant: So contract for deed is essentially like you it's it's, you'll hear rent to own's kinda lumped in there a lot of times. You're making an agreement that says, if I make you this many payments for this many years, then at the end of that, you'll give me the deed to the property. Okay? It's a really, really powerful tool on the like, if you're the seller, it's it's great because you're able to kinda and and this has changed a little bit with how Dodd Frank goes and that kind of stuff. But getting the house back is a little bit easier on a contract for deed than it is when you've actually deeded the property from day one.

Steve: Right.

Grant: But we deed the property from day one. Yeah.

Steve: I was just curious because, typically, the concern is by doing the deed that no might be called.

Grant: Right.

Steve: Right? It might get accelerated. Mhmm. So Mhmm. Yeah.

Grant: And that's referring to the the due on sale clause, which every mortgage has a due on sale clause

Steve: Right.

Grant: Which says that if you sell the property or any interest of that property, the bank has the option, or the obligation to ask for the remainder of that loan to be due at any point in time. But my response always is, what does the bank want? Like, what does the bank want? Payments. They want payments.

They want their money. They want their interest. Mhmm. My joke is if they wanted real estate, they'd be called Coldwell Banker, not Bank of America. Right?

So the in in the real world, the amount of due on sale clause that actually gets called when the payments are being made and the insurance is being taken care of in the right way is extremely small. But it's a very real thing that could happen, and we need to do what we can to

Steve: Have you ever had that happen

Grant: to you? I've had one house that may have had the due on sale clause called on it, but it was a really weird situation. It was with Wells. They just stopped accepting our payments, and they wouldn't talk to us or the seller. It was very strange.

So what I ended up doing is using what's called a collateral assignment or a hypothecation. I, brought one of my private lenders in and essentially refinanced myself out of that sub two loan Gotcha. Just to not deal with it. But, so maybe. Right.

But I don't know.

Steve: I don't know. I'm not

Grant: I'm not positive if that's what was happening.

Steve: Okay. And so, Antoine Campbell wants to know, reverse loans, can you wrap those?

Grant: That's a really good question. And I have not found nor so, like, Scott is is one of the most brilliant minds I know, in in law and creative financing. And he and I sat down several sessions, and we just couldn't figure out a way to really do a wrap on a reverse mortgage. That's not to say that there's not a way to do that.

Steve: Why did you guys come to that conclusion?

Grant: Well, it's just because well, and and to be perfectly honest, I don't really remember. This was this was years ago I remember the conclusion. Rep mortgage or I'm sorry, reverse mortgages, just due to the nature of, like, their repayments and and how those payments are factored and the and the the situation with that seller, I can't remember the specifics of it. So I don't wanna BS you too hard. Yeah.

But we just couldn't do it.

Steve: I just couldn't find it. Biggest fear is that it's growing. Right?

Grant: Well yeah. Yeah. Of course. The balance is growing. Right.

Steve: So it rarely makes sense Right. For those for long term, at least. Mhmm. Mhmm. And then so Cruz wants to know, Jay Cruz wants to know, subject to FHA in Arizona.

So knowing that I I don't know if you can answer this question because you're from Texas. Right. If you wanted to do a subject to in Arizona on FHA, how would you structure that?

Grant: So, you know, I like to deed the properties. I'm working with, do you know Eddie Speed? You familiar with him? Mhmm. He he's another just brilliant notes guy, and and and he and he and I are are pretty close.

And he's working on something right now that we're kinda kicking back and forth about using the contract for deed versus the the the deeding from day one, going into a trust, you know, that kind of stuff. Mhmm. So what I'll say is I'm a fan of just deeding the property. I think that it is I think the complications that get added from using the trust and all that kind of stuff don't really outweigh the true risk that you're inheriting, by just deeding the property and and getting it done simply. So, in my opinion, not knowing too much about Arizona law, I mean, if you're able to just close on an attorney's office, close at the attorney's office, get deeded the property.

Make Make sure that your disclosures are solid, though. I mean, that's what the paperwork is gonna that's where people die with sub two is that they don't have good disclosures to the seller explaining what the due on sale clause is. Explaining that they still have their name on the loan, that kind of stuff.

Steve: So can you explain what some of those good practices are for disclosures?

Grant: So those two would be big ones. Right? Like, the due on sale clause, like we talked about a second ago, that's huge. The seller needs to be aware because here's the thing. One of the great things about sub two is that we're buying this house into our LLC.

Right? So we we have no personal liability on it. We don't have to put a lot of capital out there. And we're we're taking over on a loan that's got, like, 4% interest on it and twenty two years left on it. Find me a private lender that's gonna give you those terms.

Right? It's not gonna happen. Right. But we have to understand that that loan is staying in mister seller's name. And so if these payments don't get made or if the due on sale clause gets called, it's mister seller whose credit is gonna get shot.

Steve: Mhmm.

Grant: It's mister seller who's gonna hurt from that. Now that's a benefit for us. That's something that's advantageous because it's nonrecourse on our side. It's nonrecourse, noninstitutionalized unlimited funding for our deals.

Steve: Right.

Grant: But we need to be very clear with mister seller, like, hey. Look. Your name is staying on this loan. You need to understand that. And what that means is I'm gonna continue making these payments on your behalf.

That's the phrase I want you to use instead of take over on payments is we're gonna make these payments on your behalf. I'm gonna make these payments on your behalf. But your name is gonna be on that mortgage, And, therefore, it's going to show up on your credit report, and it's going to remain there. And you need to be okay with this loan staying in your name for the next for the remainder of the loan Mhmm. Twenty two years, something like that.

Whatever it our average is twenty two to twenty eight years left on the loans. Don't mention to them that you may sell the note or that the buyer might refinance or anything like that. Because if you talk to a seller and you say, hey. You need to be okay with this loan staying in your name for the remainder of the loan. But don't worry because we might sell the note and that would pay you off or our buyer might refinance or I might refinance with that.

But all they will hear is that they're gonna get paid off in a year. Right? And so they're gonna call you in a year and a half and say, why is this loan still in my name? You need to get it out of my name. So don't even bring that up to them.

Steve: Sounds like a painful lesson.

Grant: Yeah. And and and to that point too, sometimes

Steve: you're

Grant: just gonna have sellers that are going to forget that you saved their butt and helped them. Like, it's they're just going to forget that and they're going to come back a year later. And why is this on my end? It's like, we went over this. You you fully understood this before.

That's going to happen. That's that's an inherent risk of that too. Alright. Did I answer your question? I think I got off track.

Steve: Yeah. No. I definitely did. Okay. Let's see.

Were there any other questions? So, how do you know what to ask for a down payment when selling these creative deals?

Grant: 10%. So when you're selling a, creative finance deal to a so, like, I like to buy with with creative financing and sell with creative financing.

Steve: Mhmm. Right?

Grant: So I might buy sub two. The reason why I keep using creative financing versus sub two is that we can do this with a free and clear house. We can do this with a house that has a lot of equity. We can do this with a house that has no equity. Right?

So there's different ways to structure all of that. It's not always going to be sub two. Similarly, on the sales side, you know, I like to do the wrap around mortgage. So so we're going to, buy with sub two, let's say, sell with a wrap around. That note that I'm gonna create right here on the wrap, that's a marketable asset.

That is a great pick a bit because we may have took it taken over on a $60,000 loan and sold it for a 100. We had a 10% down payment, so we get $10,000 right up front, which, by the way, what's the average wholesale fee? 10 k. 10? 5?

Right? So you're making your wholesale money right up front anyway, but you're also setting up a, a true net cash flow, and you've got equity in the deal that becomes a piggy bank. Mhmm. You got your today money and your tomorrow money all wrapped up in the single deal. That's why I'm such a big fan of the strategy.

So if we sell for a 100, we get $10.10 grand up front. Well, congratulations. There's what you would have made on your wholesale fee. Now they have a note to you for $90,000. You have a note to Wells Fargo for 60.

Mhmm. So you've got a $30,000 piggy bank sitting there. That asset is very marketable. But for that to be marketable, for that note, for somebody to wanna buy that note, they want your wrap buyer to be in at a maximum of 90 percent LTV. Mhmm.

So we need to ensure that we're always getting to that 90% LTV as quickly as possible with that seller or, I'm sorry, with your buyer, so that we can make sure that if we wanted to sell that note, we can. And so then you might sell that note for 90% of its value, 80% of its value. In this case, you'd be getting 80 ish thousand dollars from a note sale, but that's 20 more thousand dollars in your pocket if you needed to go buy a car or something.

Steve: You know? Who's buying these notes?

Grant: Me. I will buy your notes. Eddie Speed buys notes. You know, there's there's all kinds of note buyers. The note space is huge.

There's a lot of people looking for that. Because if you have and and by the way, if you are watching this or listening to this and you have money and you don't necessarily have time, the note space is an excellent space to be in. Because you can get the returns you're looking for, the yields even though my mortgage might be for nine and a half percent, you might be getting a 11 yield on that. Right? So, that's a little off track.

But there's all kinds of note buyers. It's a whole world of people that are that are going on,

Steve: doing these. Maybe we'll hit that towards the end of the show. So when you're talking about finding these properties right? So let's say someone's listening to your show right now Yeah. And they wanna go start going after subject to.

Uh-huh. What three things should they be doing right now to go find subject to deals?

Grant: So we all know that direct mail is not what it used to be.

Steve: Mhmm.

Grant: Right? But it still is there. I think that there's value in understanding that whereas we used to be able to rely on five ish percent return rates on our yellow letters, now that's one and a half. Shoot. My first few I've I've gotten as as big as the 13% returns on my on my marketing pieces back in 2012.

When was the last time you got a 13% return on a freaking mailer? Right? That's that it just doesn't happen anymore. However, the value is we understand dollar in, dollar out. Right?

So even though it's only 1.5% on a yellow letter or, you know, point 5% on a postcard, that's still one point five percent and point five. That's still a return that you should be converting. Right? So direct mail is still an area of of use for us, and it's scalable. That's one of the nice things about direct mail.

Cold calling is well, but it's much more difficult to scale that because you've gotta have the staff and and and I

Steve: mean bodies.

Grant: And the bodies to actually hit those those phones. That being said, cold calling is another great tool. Just hitting the phones. Door knocking is another great tool. My my best answer to, the question of what should I do to market is to respond with a question of, well, what will you do?

Right? The there is there's AA very. It's something that I've I've been really you know knocking around a lot with my students is is there's a difference between should and would we all have things that we should do But what will you do? Do it. Mhmm.

You know what I mean? Don't get so beat up about, well, I should be doing this. If you're not going to do that, stop beating yourself up about that and either find a staff member or a partner who will do that or find another road to get to the same results, something that you will do. So will you door knock? Door knock.

Will you cold call? Cold call. Will you send mail? Send mail. Do whatever it take.

Bandit signs. I'm not a fan of Bandit signs because of the, code compliance issues that go along with Bandit signs. But whatever you will do, do it. All of the marketing tools that you've ever heard everybody else using, they work.

Steve: So what's the message then that needs to be on that? So whether you're cold calling, direct mailing

Grant: If you, show me a little ankle, I'll give you my my tip here. My my I'm I'm trying to negotiate on this. So here's my phrase. Here's the phrase that I don't typically give out to everybody, but why not? I'm gonna give it out to a ton of listeners here.

A phrase that I consistently get people responding to my marketing pieces for is that I can well, actually, I take that back. I'm not gonna tell you my phrase. I'm gonna tell you my thought process to my phrase because that teach a man to fish. Right? What is it that you can do as a sub to or creative financing buyer that Joe wholesaler can't do?

Pay more? Pay more. Right? So how can you put that in a phrase in your marketing collateral that's going to pop out in a way to your seller that makes them realize that you're the guy that can outbid everybody else by a significant margin. Mhmm.

That's the thing that you need to be pushing out there. So I have a phrase that and and and here's another tip. When you're sending out marketing of any sort, and you're getting those inbound leads and that kind of stuff, make it part of your lead intake form. So what made you decide to call me versus the other 10,000 pieces that are on your on your desk? Okay?

Very quick question. Super valuable information you're gonna get from that. So about 95% of the people that respond to that question to me say this phrase. Well, I just saw that you said blah blah blah blah blah blah. So therefore, that is in all of my marketing now.

Right? So that's the kind of value that you get from from asking these questions of, well, what made you decide to call me? Sometimes it's just, well, I just picked one. Right. But sometimes it's the phrase.

Steve: So we're having some issues right now, some technical difficulties. Alright, guys. Sorry about that. Facebook has has got a little temperamental right now. So, let's go back to what you and I were just talking about.

If you were now that we've got these properties tied up Mhmm. On the subject to deals with the homeowners, how are you moving these properties? Finding buyers? Right.

Grant: So the, in the interest of not knowing where it cut off, I'll just kinda repeat everything. Right? Right. So, the the guys that I know and myself included, the majority of everything being sold right now, we're very fortunate to have tools like Facebook available to us. Right?

These Facebook groups, these Facebook ads. And I'm not really referring to, like, the boosted post kind of ad. I'm referring to, like, putting it up in the for sale, like, the marketplace. Right? That's gonna be super valuable to you.

The the the the the vast, vast majority of properties that are being sold with owner financing right now are going through that channel. Craigslist has kind of been killed because there's just VA sitting over in in India just posting the same thing 14 times in a row, and you just I mean, by ten minutes after you post it, you're on page six. Mhmm. Facebook does a little bit better job for that. So that's gonna be kind of that direct marketing stance of it.

But to simplify that even one step further and and and and to really answer, where I think most people should go so here's a philosophy that I hold just kind of in general. Right? Is pay everybody else for what they're good at until you can fire them later. Right? Mhmm.

Don't and similarly, don't not do a deal because of how much money somebody else is gonna make on it. Right. Which applies in both what I'm about to talk to and, like, if your wholesaler is gonna make $30 off you, fine. If the number of is cool with you, the number is cool with you. You know what I mean?

Like, I've

Steve: been Don't worry about what other people

Grant: Don't worry about what other people are gonna make. So similarly, what why that applies here is, like, hire a realtor.

Steve: Mhmm.

Grant: Hire a realtor. There's there's there are going to be realtors in your area who specialize in the seller financed sale, and they're gonna have buyers in their pocket. I say gonna. I mean, I I shouldn't ever speak in in, certainties. There's likely, these people, and they're gonna have buyers in their pocket, and they're actively marketing to find more of these buyers.

So a great way to find those guys is to start doing a little bit of reverse of reverse marketing. Go find properties that are for sale with owner financing and call them up and see see, is that being sold through a realtor? Is that being sold directly from the seller? Is that being like, how is that being sold? Where did you find that?

And, and if it's a realtor selling and say, hey. I actually have another property. Would you, you know, I'm not interested in this one. I'm just trying to sell one. Do you would you be, willing to take that on?

And they will. And that's gonna be a really good way for you to also find, like, who's the attorney that's doing owner financed deals? Who's the title company that's doing owner financed deals? Who how where are they getting their disclosures from? That kind of stuff.

Reverse market. Find the owner financed deals that are for sale and and talk to the seller. Mhmm.

Steve: Interesting. It's a really good idea. So what does your organization look like then in order to run your operation?

Grant: So I have two w two employees and then anywhere, depending on the season, between, like, four and ten, ten ninety nine sales team members, that kind of stuff. Right. Not counting, like, the construction ten ninety nine guys, but, like, the actual.

Steve: So they're actively marketing to find sub two deals.

Grant: Right. So one of my historically speaking and and, and continually so, my so I'm not a great lead gen guy. I just wanna be very clear on that. Like, I I that's not my skill. My skill is that I convert deals.

I convert way more deals than than most people do because we have different tools in our tool belt. So my, lead gen is primarily through JVs. It's primarily through other folks that have a deal that may be a good owner finance deal. But as we all I mean, there's just there's just a trillion more turning gears on an owner finance deal than there is on a wholesale or a fix and flip or anything like that. So, so people will bring me, hey.

I'd like to, you know, do you wanna JV on this deal with me? We'll take a look at it together and go through that way. Okay.

Steve: So that's for that's for, finding properties. Right. I mean I'm sorry.

Grant: Were you talking about the sales side still?

Steve: I'm talking about acquisition, like, finding something to deals. Right? So because, like, a lot of these wholesalers, they got acquisition people, they got disposition people. Right. And they got, you know, cold callers.

Right. Do you have these roles in your operation?

Grant: So I, I have two salespeople, acquisitions team members that can go on appointments to actually take the properties down at the appointment. Right? The the disposition side, there's, like, four four four ish realtors, that I use for for disposing of our properties, on that side. But then, again, through kind of our, the way that our operation goes, you know, that that acquisitions team member, in some ways, is is kind of that JV partner. Right?

Like, we it's it's whoever found that deal, and is able to go out and contract. And and the way that we work that with people is, like, basically, if we have to go out there and contract it, then you're just gonna get a smaller cut of the deal. If you go out there and contract it, you get a bigger cut of the deal. Right? So that's kinda how we handle that acquisitions team side of things.

Steve: Gotcha.

Grant: We've been using Infusionsoft, as of, like, from a CRM side of things to handle the team management of that. But we're

Steve: Socially courageous. Dude, it's Yeah.

Grant: It's a very powerful tool that I pay a ton of money for, and it doesn't work on mobile.

Steve: Yeah. Yeah. Infusionsoft is a great, great theoretical program.

Grant: Right. Well, and it's good for it's good for what it's good for. Right? But for the acquisition side, it's not. So we're we're pushing over into, building everything

Steve: everything out in Podio now to Yeah. Podio is where it's at. Podio is is amazing. Okay. So deal flow, like, how many are you guys doing then?

Grant: So I have to I have to admit that I have unintentionally become a guru this year, because I took such a heavy turn into the education side, that I let my acquisitions crap go to crap. I'm I'm averaging a a deal or so a month. It's it's I'm not doing what I should be doing. But I just hired two people, within this last month because I was like, holy crap. Why am I like, what happened to my deal flow?

So we are, we're pushing the marketing back out.

Steve: We do.

Grant: Because the the where I need to average, where I typically average when we are doing everything is between five and eight.

Steve: Okay. Would you say you took that off the ball a little bit?

Grant: Bit? Yeah. Definitely. Definitely. Well and so here's the thing.

It's like, what is the ball? Right? So one of the the great beautiful things about subject to and what you can do through building this portfolio is that you build a portfolio. It's not a job. Right?

Wholesaling is a job. Being a realtor is a job. It's a very high paying job.

Steve: Mhmm. But

Grant: it's a job. With subject tos and wraps, you're building a portfolio. You're you're not building a business. So I got to a stage where, like, we're making money. I didn't need to buy a ton more.

Like, how much money do you really need? Right? And I found I'm super passionate about training. And quite frankly, I'm not as passionate about going on the appointments and buying the houses. I just I'm I'm just not.

And so, about two years ago, I kind of made the decision to make an an actual push into the education stuff. The beginning of last year is when I launched the the online academy for creativecashflow.com. And, and we've seen a ton of successes from that. And I've loved doing it, and it's been great, and it's growing. So it's not necessarily that I took my eyes off the ball.

It's just the ball changed for me. And then I kind of realized, like, oh, wait a minute. Like, this I I need to be doing more volume over here. Right. If for no other reason than if I'm gonna teach people to do it, like, we need to be doing it.

Right? Yeah. But Well,

Steve: I think we all go through different seasons. Right?

Grant: Right.

Steve: Like, where we are in our career. So, like, how many properties then are you do you have in your portfolio?

Grant: So I'm down to 30 ish right now. I've sold a bunch of notes over this last year. I've done so my personal portfolio, I've done about a 150. I've originated, and and made money on, and been on the HUDs of about four well, I'll put it that way. I've been on about 1,400 HUDs, over my over my career in one way or another.

Right? But as far as, like, actually held in portfolio, about a 150 of those. Alright. And, and so then whenever I split with Scott, you know, I was a 60% owner. He was a 40% owner.

So 40% of the portfolio went to him, and then I've sold a bunch of notes and stuff too.

Steve: Okay. Teng Nguyen says that you are the, best rapper alive. It's awfully generous. Great title.

Grant: That's awesome. I like that.

Steve: So are you in any of the markets then?

Grant: That's actually part of our push over this next twelve months as we are pushing into other markets now.

Steve: Okay. So you started in Dallas?

Grant: Mhmm. I've only ever been in Dallas. I've been a big stickler of of buying houses only in in DFW. About half of my portfolio has been in Fort Worth, half has been in Dallas.

Steve: So what's changing? Why are you pushing?

Grant: So lots of reasons. One, being Dallas is just crazy, pricing and all that kind of stuff. Two, being because of the education side that I'm doing, because of the fact that I'm, like, semi public here and doing these things, I get a lot of people from other states and other cities that I would love to help, who would love to have me help them. But I'm, like, I'm I'm, like, I only buy in Dallas. Right?

And so I've had over this last two quarters kind of a realization of like, why am I not? Why am I not buying? You know, this is so one of the things there's a book that I really love. This book changed my so if you're an owner operator, as in you're the guy going on the appointments, you're the girl going on the appointments, and you're not converting over 80% of your appointments, you need this book. The average, most people are gonna convert 20 to 30%.

Your acquisitions team, they're gonna they're gonna convert 20% or 25 ish percent of their appointments. You as an owner operator, you should be converting 80 plus percent. Part of that comes out well, lots of reasons. That's complete off topic. But there's a book called Influence, The Psychology of Persuasion, and it's, it's it's a phenomenal book.

Book. That book took me from being a 25% guy to an 88 guy, on my conversion rates. What what it is, it's written by a, PhD in psychology. His name's Robert Cialdini or Cialdini. I don't know.

Yeah. Is it Cialdini? Yeah. Okay. I finally know how to pronounce it.

Thank you. I always have to be like, I don't know how to pronounce it. Cialdini. Cialdini. Cialdini.

Okay. Thank you. And it basically goes through, like, what are the things that make human brains make decisions. Right? One of the principles inside of there is that we our brain takes shortcuts.

Right? Our brain is gonna make a decision and stick to that decision and just back up that decision. You saw an example of that in this show, earlier. It's like, what do you do about, reverse mortgages? I'm like, I don't do them.

Why not? I don't know. But I know I don't do them.

Steve: You know

Grant: what I mean? Like, because, because, you know, the the brain takes about 800 calories a day Mhmm. Of of effort. So from a very survivalistic instinct, our brain has decided, if I've already made a decision before, I'm not gonna spend more calories to make that decision again. I'm just gonna have that shortcut that I made that decision.

Right? So long story long, what I'm getting at is I made that decision back in, like, 2013 that I was not gonna buy nationally. Well, it's not 2013 anymore. Right? And so over this last two quarters, I've kinda had that realization of, like, there's so many tools that we have that we can do remotely.

There's so many people remotely that need help that are not closing deals because they don't have somebody who can JV with them on these things. And those are that's deal flow that I should be taking down. So, yes, over this next twelve months, we will be doing a full national push to to every place else.

Steve: Makes a lot of sense. Monthly marketing. What are you spending on marketing?

Grant: I've never spent a lot on marketing. And, again, like I said, the the lead gen is is, never been my, like, superpower. But, you know, marketing for for us is gonna be anywhere between 1 and $6,000 a month.

Steve: Okay. What about total overhead?

Grant: Total overhead on a monthly basis. I'm I'm working at well, let's see. Because I just hired two, two more people. So, between 20 and 30 a month.

Steve: Okay. $2,030,000. In monthly overhead. Right. So that all going?

Grant: So yeah. So, well and, actually, that's a little bit outdated too. So I've got the employees, and then I'd been pouring a lot of money into the education side of things Gotcha. And then rent and, just payments on houses and stuff that we because we you know, we gotta budget out a certain amount for just vacancies and and holding costs, and I'm including that in there. That makes sense.

Steve: I was like, man, where is that going?

Grant: Yeah. Okay. Strippers and Coke mostly.

Steve: But Hey. You know what? They need love too. Valuable resources.

Grant: So valuable resources. One I would throw out there would be, like, the Propello Academy. It's a it's a free resource with tons of education from people that really know what they're doing. Obviously, you know about this podcast. Continuing to look through the history and the library of, that's inside of this podcast is huge.

But books, man. Read books. You and I were talking about traction. Traction is one of the and Tang, you know, I got Tang on the traction, book about a year ago. And everyone that I know that's picked up traction and Rocket Fuel, the the follow-up to traction, everyone that I know that's picked up that book has just seen massive, massive results and changes in their business.

And, so I really, really, really cannot encourage you enough to read Traction. Yeah. And then Influence is another very, influential book. I'll just list off a few that I think you should read. Start With Why is an excellent book.

Have you read Start With Why?

Steve: Yep. Simon Sinek.

Grant: Yeah. Yeah. It's a phenomenal book. And then oh, what's the other one I always recommend that's kinda like Start With Why? I can't remember it.

But those are those are a good starting point. And influence changed my my life on conversions. Traction changed my life on how we run our business. Mhmm. And then start with why, it really opened my mind to a lot of different ways of how we were failing to serve our sellers, serve our buyers by making sure that we were aligning properly and that kind of stuff too, and that made a big difference for

Steve: us. Yeah. I mean, those are all great books. Influence, I actually just read this year.

Grant: Oh, did you? Yeah. What'd you think of it?

Steve: It was very interesting. Right? I mean, we kinda knew about social proof and stuff like that. But it was really interesting when when he broke down, like, you know, that poor lady that was murdered in front of 38 people and why no one called the police. It was just very interesting.

Yeah. It's such a phenomenon.

Grant: How that stuff goes on. Influence is one of those books that if you're a naturally good salesperson, you're gonna already inherently know everything that's in that book. But as you're reading it, you're gonna go, oh, that's why that works.

Steve: Well, not just that, though. I I like how he's using it as a defense mechanism. It's like Yes. If they're doing this, tell them I don't appreciate you doing this to me right now and and end the conversation.

Grant: So Well, and the irony is that and I'm sure you know this, but he actually wrote that book as a consumer protection book. He wrote that book.

Steve: Well, that's what it sounds like when you're

Grant: reading it. He wrote that book to try and help consumers know how people are weaponizing influence Mhmm. And to combat it. Well, then he found out that the only people buying his book was us. So he wrote another book called Pre Suasion as a follow-up specifically to the marketer, and it's also very good.

But I I I think that is where you should start.

Steve: So going back to you're saying your why. So what is your why?

Grant: Yeah. That's a that's a really good question. So my why I I have to, align my priorities as God, family, and everything else. If I don't align in that way, I will I'll find like, 2017, I spent six months in, like, a really deep depression, 2017, and I found out or realized it's because I had misaligned. I had I had my everything else above my God and family.

I was working too hard and focusing on things that I shouldn't say. So my why, I'm I want to do this. It's the kind of the Dave Ramsey live now like nobody else, so you can live later like nobody else. Right? I'll work my butt off right now.

Let's build the portfolio right now. But it's so that I can spend time with my wife and my son and actually enjoy, you know, the latter part of our years. I I want to be able to, not saying that I will, but able to retire at 40

Steve: Mhmm.

Grant: With complete, like, do whatever we wanna do kind of portfolio. That's not to say that I will stop working, but able to. Right? Yeah. And, and and but, again, the point being so that I can spend more time with, with loved ones and actually be outside and do stuff, not work.

Because I'm not that guy that, like, has to work. Yeah. I would prefer to do outdoorsy stuff with family. So that's that's what this is all about for me, is setting up a future for for myself and my family and making sure that my son's gonna be taken care of long term.

Steve: Awesome. What's your biggest struggle right now?

Grant: Me. If I'm gonna be completely honest you know, again, like, I I try to be a really open book about who I am and what's going on. And, you know, similarly, like, being an open book about, like, I'm just not buying a bunch of houses right now. That's just not where I'm at. Right?

I'm not gonna try and out guru people and be like, oh, yeah. Well, don't ask me. You know? So right now, my biggest struggle is me. I've got a lot of failures.

I've got a lot of of weaknesses that I need to get around, or staff around and, and just in a mental space of trying to figure out what the best way is to, work around those shortcomings. Right? So, an example being, I'm not a like I said, I, you know, I I can work. I will work. That's not my, like, default state.

I don't want to hustle, grind, bust my butt, like, you know, the the the Facebook people want you all to believe that it's all about just, oh, hustle, hustle, hustle. I wanna work smart. I don't wanna hustle. I don't wanna I I work I put in my time. I I worked my fifteen hour days.

Right? I'm kinda done with But we're in this transitional period where, the education stuff is taking off really well. I'm I'm I'm loving how many people I'm able to help on that side. But I realized that the passion that I have for that, the the real money is in the real estate. Right?

And I let my passion for the training and seeing other people succeed kind of overtake the acquisition side of things. So, so my failure in properly scaling both sides together, is something that right now is a tough season for me because I'm having to rekind of like, oh, crap. I really focused a lot over here. And I love seeing the other people see, but it's not making me the money that real estate makes. Right?

And so I've gotta kinda like, still push this ball because it's because, again, you know, it's so important. I love Daniel Moore's quote of don't judge me by the millions I've made, judge me by the millionaires I've made. Mhmm. But rebuilding this acquisitions team up to where where we are getting that five to eight properties a month like we are used to having.

Steve: Well, and I got that same struggle too. Right? So yeah. I mean, for me, I love seeing other people succeed. Mhmm.

Right? But I don't include myself in that. Right. And so Yeah. It's I have to remind myself.

And there's a book, Give and Take, I think, by Adam Grant. Okay. He talks about, like, you know, people that are too selfless Mhmm. End up at the bottom Mhmm. Because they forget to take care of themselves too.

Grant: I'm gonna pick that up because that's very much something I'm struggling with right now as I've put so much emphasis and effort. Because, like, for instance, the Propellio Academy that I that I just I give away my whole module on seller financing. That is a very expensive and very I spent a year in filming to get that thing. That is a massive undertaking Mhmm. Of putting this all together to put it out in front of people.

I gave it away for free because it's like, yeah, people deserve to have this knowledge. And it's like, but but wait a minute. Hold on. Where's I should be, you know, so so it's, it is. It's it's a it's definitely I enjoy every bit of it, but I've gotta look at my entity as an entity.

And I have to do the things that are going to make that entity grow. And that's the struggle I'm having with right now.

Steve: Yeah. So I think the greatest lesson for me out of that book was, like, yeah. You need to see other people succeed. Mhmm. Absolutely.

But you also need to make sure your wife and kids also succeed. Right. So take get get rid of you Mhmm. And think about your wife and your kids.

Grant: Mhmm. So what is your superpower? My superpower is getting people on board. My my superpower is influence. Using the using those tools that are in influence.

Mhmm. I have a unique ability to sell, and and and to get people on board with things. And whether that's a seller getting on board with something, or getting a group together to to to do something, or or building the acquisition teams, or whatever.

Steve: Yeah.

Grant: But it's a practiced skill. That's one of those things where it's like you, so Rich Dad Poor Dad was, was the first book I ever it actually was, like, kinda what inspired me to get into real estate, which I think a lot of people share that

Steve: Mhmm.

Grant: That story. One of the really, maybe the biggest thing that stuck out to me in that book, was his have you read it Rich Dad Poor Dad?

Steve: Long time ago.

Grant: Long time ago. There's a section where he's talking about, like, Michael Jordan wasn't the best back basketball player just because he was the best basketball player. You know, to expand that. Peyton Manning, Tom Brady, these guys are naturally gifted, but they work at it. They work at that craft.

And and the thing that he used that to go into was, like, so if you wanna make money, get good at money. Right? And we can expand that even further. When I started my career, really the reason why I, well and and now that I think about this, maybe I should have answered this in my in my initial struggles question. My initially, I was a terrible negotiator.

I was terrified of getting in front of a seller and negotiating something. I had no idea what to do with that. Right? That's what inspired me to do all the JVing that I've done

Steve: Mhmm.

Grant: Which was, you know, to the point of, well, I'll just get all these other guys to go out and do the negotiating, and I'll be their knowledge support. Right? I'll I'll back them up because I've got the access to capital. I've got the knowledge or the access to knowledge, and they can go do the negotiating. And then I was like, well, freaking sales are like, these have been around for centuries.

There's books. There's there's resources. There's that. So I studied it. Right?

And, and and in so in so doing in doing so, really found a passion for that side of things. Right? I really enjoy the the negotiation and that kind of stuff. So, so I've taken that, very seriously and and and enjoy doing that. And now, I'm in a position where I can share those same kind of tools with other people to help them grow in their negotiating and them get into a better spot of

Steve: Yeah.

Grant: Of of sales. Because I think that's a common struggle that a lot of people have is the fear, of sitting in front of a seller and trying to convince them to give you their house.

Steve: Right. Going back on just a quick tangent. I'm talking about the, you know, Michael Jordan isn't the best because he was just talented. I like to tell some of the people that I'm training, the difference between Kobe Bryant and Darius Miles. Okay.

Grant: So do

Steve: you know who Darius Miles is? I don't

Grant: know who Darius

Steve: Miles is. That's kind of the point. Okay. So, they were both supposed to be the next Jordans. Okay.

They were both baby Jordan. Like, you know, Darius Miles dunked on Charles Oakley in one of Jordan's camps.

Grant: Really?

Steve: Like, he was the select next superstar.

Grant: Okay.

Steve: And he got in NBA. No idea was smoke weed. Mhmm. Right? Kobe Bryant was killing himself shooting 2,000 jumpers a day.

Right. So Yeah. They were both equally talented. Yeah. One did something with it.

Grant: That's a great example. Wasn't named Darius Miles?

Steve: Darius Miles. He played for the Clippers for the longest time.

Grant: Okay.

Steve: Which is probably was the other reason why you probably failed. What is the greatest lesson you have learned?

Grant: I think gosh. There's just so many lessons. One of the lessons that I think that I've learned that I think a lot of people need to hear right now is that sometimes the greatest deal you've done is the deal you didn't do. I think right now, people are super pressured into buying deals.

Steve: Mhmm.

Grant: And, actually, you know what? Here, I'm gonna expand this even further into into another big lesson that I think people need to understand. Don't focus on the numb your goal for your year should not be the number of houses you're going to do. It should be the dollar amount that you're going to receive from this. Right?

So, there it's a it's a small distinction, but it's a very important one because, people come out and they say, oh, I wanna buy 50 houses a year, which by the way, you don't need 50 houses a year. People don't we get so used to the big volume, big baller guys being on these podcasts and talking about, oh, I do 60 houses a year or eight eight, you know, a 120 last year or whatever that might be. I legitimately, I can show you the numbers. Like, you if everybody, if I ask you how much money do you wanna have to to, like, retire on a monthly income, What do you wanna have every month coming in passively so that you can retire? Everybody always has $10,000.

Say, we can get you $10,000 a month for the rest of your life, and you have to own about 30 houses to get there. That's not that's all you have. That's all you have to have. It's you get seller financed homes, you get a mixture of rentals in there, and you're good. Right?

But this Facebook culture, this this Instagram culture, this, let me tout how many I'm doing and how good I am and blah blah blah blah blah blah puts this really unrealistic pressure on the new investor

Steve: Mhmm.

Grant: To come in and say, well, I have to do fifty, sixty, 70 deals or I'm failing. That's not the case. And if you have a goal of I'm gonna do 50 deals this year, you're gonna take down some crap deals just to get deals under your belt. K? Is your goal to make money, or is your goal to buy houses?

Yeah. Your goal is to make money. I bet. I I don't wanna speak for you, but but I would bet if you had the option of, hey, here's a bunch of money. Here's a bunch of houses that are gonna lose you money every year.

Mhmm. You'd probably take the bunch of money option. Right? Right. So make that your goal.

How much equity do you need this year? How much cash flow is your goal for for, you know, adding this year? And work towards those goals instead of working towards a volume goal.

Steve: Yeah.

Grant: So the dollar versus volume, I think, is a really important lesson that people need to understand. Because, again, with the pressure to do volume, people are buying crap deals. And and that's scary.

Steve: Yeah. That's interesting because I have a slightly different

Grant: You have a a different view on that?

Steve: Slightly different view on it.

Grant: Okay. Right? So what's your take?

Steve: Well, I think the the volume right? Mhmm. And given the volume Mhmm. You work backwards to figure out how many deals you need to do. Because

Grant: Wait. The volume worked back. Wait. Can you say that again?

Steve: Depending on the sales, how much money you wanna make Right. Figure out how many deals you need to do Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

To make that number. Right? I agree with you. Don't take bad deals. Sure.

Saying no will sometimes save you a lot of money. Oh, yeah. But if you don't have a units, it's hard to repeat it's hard to repeat if you know how many what it takes to do units. Right? You gotta work backwards.

Mhmm. But I agree. Don't go after number.

Grant: Right.

Steve: Just go after number. Go after number because there's a reason Right. Behind that number.

Grant: Yeah. I I absolutely agree with that. A quick anecdote kind of on that note of of this, you know, your your your best deal may be the one you say no to. Also, if you are studying and you are saying no to a bunch of deals, stay strong because that can get really discouraging too when you're seeing a bunch of deals and you just constantly are like, no, no, no, no, no, no, no. You're like, what the hell am I even do?

Like, I can't buy anything. Why is this guy buying? So in my old neighborhood, there was a house that I made a run at. I ended up saying no or saying no because I got outbid by somebody else. But I lived in that neighborhood.

So I had to come home every day and see them rehabbing it and making it look beautiful. It went up on the market. It ended ended up selling for, you know, this great price. And I'm just, like, I just don't understand. What did they know that I didn't know?

Like, what and that's I hear that all the time. I don't know if you hear that from people too, but it's just, like, what are the what do these other people know that I don't know? Why are they able to buy these houses? Fast forward a couple of years and, because so like when I do personal mentoring, I always do an interview beforehand and I and I don't take everybody on. And I was telling this lady I wasn't gonna take her on for for other reasons.

And she's like begging me to to take her on in my course or in my personal mentor. And then she to get me to accept her, she starts telling me about this story about how she lost $75,000 on this deal. And, you know, she bought it and she did this beautiful rehab, but then this and this and this and this and this. Well, it comes it was that house. Right?

Yeah. So don't always wonder what that person knows that you don't, even if you see somebody else bid it. There's a lot of people losing a lot of money in real estate right now, but nobody's posting that on Facebook. Right. You know, I can I can show you HUDs where you've got a a a you know, whatever, $50,000 payout to the seller, but you lost $10,000 on the deal?

Don't pay attention to the check that people like to throw up on their Facebook thing. They might have lost money on that deal. That check means nothing. Until I see a p and l, I don't believe crap.

Steve: Well, why don't people gonna start posting their P and L's on Facebook?

Grant: Right. Exactly. It's not sexy.

Steve: So what's your favorite, best, or most interesting failure?

Grant: I think yeah. So the, I don't know if I have any favorite failure. So here's here's the thing. That's always a really difficult question for me because I have a difficult time, like, defining things as failures Mhmm. For myself.

And part of that's hubris, but I think part of that is also was it, was it Edison or Einstein that was, like, I didn't I I found 10, you know, 10,000 ways not to do it. Edison. Edison. And I'm butchering the quote. I know.

But the but the but the point being, your failures are successes in their own right. Mhmm. And to have the, motivation to stay in this business long term, you have to convince yourself to have that kind of viewpoint. Right?

Steve: Right.

Grant: Because this has a huge turnover rate. Real estate does. People get in and out. I would say 95 plus percent of the people that get into real estate leave within six to six months. It is a a massive turnover.

Steve: It's a brutal business.

Grant: It is.

Steve: It's the, you know, I used to think traditional real estate, you know, just regular realtors. I I always say, you know, I love that because I I love this industry because it's the most capitalistic industry there is. Like if you don't kill, you don't eat. Right. Right?

Grant: Right.

Steve: Man, wholesaling and this other off market stuff is way more brutal, but way more capitalistic. Way more I don't know, like, I wanna say animalistic, but I mean, it is a brutal industry. And I think there's a lot of great people in it. Oh, yeah. But if you don't have, like, thick skin and and and and, a lot of grit Mhmm.

A lot of persistence, man, you're gonna get chewed up. Mhmm.

Grant: Yeah. You really are. And to add to that, proper expectations.

Steve: Yeah. I think improper expectations are the number one killer of investors.

Grant: I think people, again, say, oh, well, so and so like, you know, like I said, my within eight months, I was averaging seven or eight houses a month. Mhmm. That's not what happens. That's a very, very edge case use. That is a guy, that, you know, I I was just very lucky.

I got I got plugged in with the right people, God opened a lot of doors for me, and it and it took off. That's maybe one in a trillion cases that that happens. Right? But I'm but I'm here and we're gonna have hundreds or thousands of people that hear that and say, oh, so you're gonna get all these houses within the first six months. That's what we're gonna do.

It's not what you're gonna do. I can almost guarantee you. It's gonna take you eight or nine months to get any kind of traction at all to buy a house is probably gonna be within that six to nine month range.

Steve: Yeah.

Grant: To get consistency is probably gonna be in that twelve to fifteen month range. Right? But people get in, and they have this improper expectation, and then they start viewing their failures as failures instead of just bumps along the road to get to that ultimate goal, and it caused people to to leave. So, so it's hard for me to answer what is my best or favorite or whatever failure because because I can never think of failures. Right?

It's it's just, a, I've been very, very fortunate in, in my career and in the business. I I hadn't, I I I don't think I've ever lost more than 2 or $3,000 on a deal, and I think I've done that maybe twice. One of which I very much knew was gonna happen when I went in. It was like, I'm either gonna make $13,000 or I'm gonna lose two. And I lost two.

And I'm like, oh, well, whatever.

Steve: Alright. So real quick, guys. We're still giving shirts away. So follow me on Instagram. Look for a post about ten to fourteen days old.

I'll have instructions there on how to get these free real estate disruptors t shirts. And then join me tomorrow at 02:00, Pacific, 05:00 eastern. Octavius Bennett and Nick Levano are coming in from LA. They're gonna talk about how they did their first million in wholesale fees. So going back to you, what are your last thoughts?

Anything you wanna leave the listeners with?

Grant: Just some encouragement to to really expand your knowledge now because as markets shift, all it's taken to be a good real estate investor for this past four years is time. You can be a crap investor, buy a deal, and wait six months and look like a genius. Mhmm. That's not gonna stay. Right?

So when that market shifts, the people who already know how to handle that market, are gonna be the ones that succeed. The people who don't are gonna be the ones that you meet at Home Depot that say, you know, that are employees that say, oh, I used to be in real estate, and then the crash of two thousand or, you know, 2020 happened. And, yeah, you know me. You know what I mean? Right.

How many of those people have we met? We've everybody's met that guy that got out in 2008 or whenever. So even if you are not going to take the creative strategies to your own portfolio because there's such value in focus, there's such value in in knowing your niche and staying inside of it. But but but my encouragement is to widen that and not say I'm a wholesaler or I'm a fix and flipper and to say I'm a single family investor. Right?

I need to have the different tools in my tool belt to at least recognize when a deal may qualify for one thing or another so I can work with somebody else who knows how to do that stuff. Like, there's a what's a cash flow Chris and and what's his partner's name? The Hazy Flip guys, Brian. Do you JV with guys on on deals? Percent.

Okay. So you have resources here locally, and and nationally, that you can reach out to if people that are successful and know how to take down those deals. You need to recognize that even if it doesn't look like a deal for wholesale, there's certain things, certain qualifications that can make it a deal for creative financing. And the creative financing world, the sub two world, is gangbusters in a in a down market. That is when we really shine.

That is when you build your portfolio. So get ready for that now. I'm not a sky is falling guy. I'm not worried about it. But get ready now so that when that crash happens, you're prepared to take it right.

Steve: You're not saying it's gonna happen this year or

Grant: next year.

Steve: It's just gonna happen at some point.

Grant: Going to. Yes. Alright. So Gotcha. Perfect.

By preparing now, you're setting yourself up for that long term success.

Steve: Awesome. If someone wants to get a hold of you, how would they do that?

Grant: So you can reach out to me at creative cash flow dot com. I've got a contact on there. Or you can hit me on Facebook. You know, Grant Kemp. I'm sure I'll be tagged on here somewhere that you can get to me that way.

But, yeah, I'd love to chat with you.

Steve: Awesome. Alright. Thank you, guys. Thank you for watching, and thank you.

Grant: Thanks, Steve.

Steve: That was a lot of awesome information.

Grant: Yeah. Appreciate it, man.