100+ Wholesale Deals a Month

Steve Trang: Everybody, thank you for joining us for today's very special episode of Real Estate Disruptors. So we have my good buddy, Wren Bartlett, with Bartlett Holdings, and Wren flew in from Mobile out Mobile, Alabama. Talk about how he's hired over 250 sales reps to have been a part of a 100 plus transactions per month. Now I'm on a mission to create 100 millionaires, and information on this podcast alone is enough to help you become a millionaire in the next five to seven years. If you'll take consistent action, you will become one.

Now we know you want to be a successful real estate investor. In order to do that, you need to be able to consistently buy houses at deep margins. You may not be contracting enough houses or buying them deep enough, causing you to potentially feel frustrated or anxious. So we know how deflating it can be, walking out of the house without a signed contract. So we've helped hundreds of people buy thousands of houses, deep margins.

Give me the word sales on Instagram to find out how so you never have to worry about revenue again. And this show is brought to you by our sister company, Investor Lift. Get access to 2,000,000 cash buyers across the country. Go Go to investorlift.com, put in disruptors to get 10% off. And if you get value today, please tag your friend below.

Share this episode right now. That way, we can all grow together. And this is a live show, so please ask your questions for Wren to answer. You ready?

Wren Bartlett: I'm ready, man.

Steve: Alright. So first question is, what got you into real estate?

Wren: What got me into real estate? It's a great question. It was a long time ago. For me, about five years ago, I was running an advertising agency, And I called on, an old business partner of mine, and, we just hit it off. And he was like, man, you know, have you ever thought about real estate?

And I was like, absolutely not. Didn't own a house. Definitely didn't own any rentals. Never bought a house, rented, didn't know what equity was, but I knew how to close deals, and I knew how to market. And, that was attractive.

So we teamed up, never looked back since.

Steve: So talk to me about, marketing. Alright? Because I think, one of the most important parts of running a successful sales organization or or real estate organization is marketing. So talk to me about your marketing background.

Wren: Yeah. So I I tell people all the time, you you you don't run a real estate organization. You run a sales and marketing organization. Your product

Steve: is

Wren: real estate.

Steve: Mhmm.

Wren: Right? And so running a successful marketing, organization, you have to know your product. Right? I think it consists of a few a few pieces when you're marketing. It's the the product, the list, and then how you distribute it.

Right? Once you understand those concepts, it's not really that tough. Right? We just met our, got to listen to Jeff Hoffman on stage at CG. Mhmm.

What'd he tell us? He said, go out and get to know your people. Understand their problem. Create a way to solve it. Once you know how to solve it, then your messaging just has to be catered to that so you effectively communicate, hey.

I can solve your problem.

Steve: Right.

Wren: And after that

Steve: Before that, though, right, like, you had your marketing agency. Mhmm. Like, what got what what prompted starting a marketing agency?

Wren: Well, I worked for one. Right? So I'll tell you, when I was 25 years old, I was a server in a bar. And I got fired, and I was selling everything in my house to pay rent. And this guy, Chris Khalifi, who is a dear, dear, dear friend of mine, he called me and said, hey.

I wanna buy this mattress that you have. And so he pulls up. He gets out. He's driving a nice car. He's in a suit.

He's on a phone. He walks in my house, looks at the mattress, kicks it, and walks out. And I'm like, hey. What do you do? And he's like, I own an advertising agency.

And I said, I'm coming to work for you. And he smiles, says, no. You're not. Gets in his car and drives off. So I, Googled what is an advertising agency, seen what it was, went and figured out really quick.

Hey. Maybe I could build websites. Mhmm. And I just called him every day, every day, every day for about a week. And finally, he said, you know what?

Just come in and talk to the guys, Ran. I'm like, okay. So I go in, and they're sitting in a production room and, you know, they're young kids fresh out of college making, car commercials. And, built some great rapport with them. They liked me, and he was like, well, I'd love to hire you, but I don't have any money.

I said, dude, I work for free. So I showed up, started, you know, filling around, building a website. He didn't have a website. He just did car commercials for, local car dealerships and, just kept showing up, kept showing up, kept learning on YouTube how to build websites, how to do social media. And, then I accidentally sold a website Mhmm.

On accident and got a commission check and then built it. And I said, wow. I'm in sales now. Yeah. And it just kinda exploded from there.

We built this business up pretty big. And, you know, it just it just kept evolving, and I kept learning and had a real thirst for knowledge. And I did not wanna go back to bartending.

Steve: I think there's, a lot there, right, as far as you got you were told no Yeah. Multiple times Multiple times. And you kept harassing the guy, following up with him Yeah. Which is important part of sales.

Wren: Mhmm.

Steve: And then on top of that, when when he said I don't have money to pay you, he said I'll work for free. And there are a lot of people I think that, you know, maybe listening to your show that may be above working for free. You know? If you haven't done your first deal yet and you wanna pay for a mentorship, but I don't wanna work free, I wanna go Right. Be scrappy.

Like, what what did you take from your experience?

Wren: I knew that I did not have, the pedigree. I did not have a college degree. I did not have the background. I knew the only reason I was only way I would get an opportunity to get into a professional organization was to work for free. Right?

And, you're right. I think a lot of people do have a sense of entitlement. And by the way, I kept working there and then going and bartending at night until I made enough money. That's how I continue to pay my bills. But, yeah, people think that they don't wanna work for free, but, you know, I think that it's a misstep.

I think that there's a lot to be gained from going in and working for free because you're much more driven than to begin to earn a paycheck. And I think you figure out what you like to do because if you're working for free, you tend to gravitate towards things that you actually like to do, so it doesn't feel like work. It's been fun, if that makes sense.

Steve: Makes total sense. So your partner reach out to you and say, hey. Let's do real estate together.

Wren: Mhmm.

Steve: And you're like, absolutely not. But you did.

Wren: Yeah.

Steve: Was he doing real estate that time?

Wren: He was. Yeah. And I was I was working with a guy who I thought I was gonna become a partner with. Mhmm. And, it didn't end up working out.

It was not in the cards. And I really wanted to own something. I really you know, Gary Vee was hot at the time. I wanted to be an entrepreneur, and, you know, I I woulda went to work probably, for a lot less than than he paid me at the time. But just for the for the shot to earn equity and earn something, it was a looking back, it was it was one of the best moves of my life.

Steve: So tell me about your first deal there.

Wren: First deal there, probably about a weekend. You know, I didn't know much. I was completely overwhelmed, second guessing my whole life, and the decision I had made, completely foreign space to me. And, had an appointment, and then I was told to go out on it. And I went out on it.

I knew what I could pay for it, and I stepped outside and made a phone call. I was like, dude, there's no way they're gonna sell his house for $40,000. And my ex partner said, don't you freaking leave unless you got a contract in your hand. Go off from $40. And so I did.

And after about three and a half hours of, you know, putting that southern charm on them, they agreed to it. And I walked out, like, clammy and shaking. And from then on, I was like, oh my god. I'm addicted to this. This is awesome.

Steve: What was the do you remember what the value was?

Wren: Oh, the value then was probably a buck 50, a buck 60 ARV.

Steve: Okay. And you had to offer $1.40. So this 40. 40. Sorry.

Wren: 40.

Steve: 40. Very first time. Mhmm. What was your thought process? Because you were saying, like, there's no way they're gonna do it.

So what talk me through that.

Wren: Sure. So I had no sales process. Right? It was just, hey. Go make it happen.

Just kinda cowboy gunslinging. My thought process was I I just don't know why they take this offer. Right? I didn't understand wholesaling, really. I didn't understand the value exchange, the convenience.

I really, at that time, didn't understand why people would actually sell their house to a wholesaler. I really do now. I understand on a very fundamental level. But, it was it was a challenge. Right?

I looked at it as a challenge, and I was and also, like, kinda kinda earning my stripes. Hey. If I'm gonna be what I'm supposed to be, this is a a mountain that I'm gonna have to climb. I'm gonna have to do this. And and I just sat in there, and I listened to the people and told them what I wanted to offer and and and why I thought it was a good deal and why they should do business with me.

Yeah. I told them that it was my first deal, that I worked for an established company, that I really needed to get it. And, you know, they they had inherited the house, and it was junked out. It was brick on a slab, and it it ended up, you know, I I know the flipper that bought it, and I went and looked at the final product because I was super curious. Mhmm.

He did a phenomenal job. But, man, you know, just thinking about I'm kinda excited thinking about it now. You know? It's kinda like your first kiss, I guess. Yeah.

Your first your first wholesale deal.

Steve: What lessons did you learn in in in that transaction?

Wren: In that transaction, I think resiliency, not to give up. Right? Just to stay in there and fight for what you want, but also just to be nice for people and have some empathy. Right? They were going through a situation where they had this house.

They had no money. It was, emotionally a very tough situation because they had inherited it. And, you know, so I just learned to listen and to have empathy and to tell the truth. Right? I told them what I was gonna do.

I told them we were gonna wholesale it. I told them I knew exactly who I thought was gonna buy it. And, I had went out and watched a bunch of YouTube videos where people were wholesaling deals, but always telling them that they were gonna buy. Right? Mhmm.

A little bit of manipulation there. It's not 100 true. You could say, oh, well, we're gonna double close it, so technically we'll buy it. But I just I learned that, you know, be resilient, have empathy, tell the truth.

Steve: Got it. So that was your first deal. I mean, were all your other deals easier at the appointment after that?

Wren: No. Absolutely not. In fact, it became a little tougher because, I tend to get a bit of an ego sometimes. I have to stay humble and check myself, and I thought I was hot shit. And, yeah, I I fell on my face a lot after that.

But from that, I realized that, hey. I need a sales process. Mhmm. I need a systematic way to ensure that I'm taking the right actions and the right steps, saying the right thing to the right person at the right time with the right offer. And that's kinda when I become super obsessed with sales.

Steve: Yeah. Got it. So, how long ago was it? You said you started this four years ago?

Wren: About about four and a half. It would have been five year it would be five years in in January.

Steve: Okay. So, we're as part of a growing organization, like, what were some of the early challenges you faced in in that wholesaling business?

Wren: Definitely leadership.

Steve: Mhmm. Right?

Wren: I I didn't have a ton of leadership experience. I was a big knucklehead, and, I made a lot of leadership mistakes.

Steve: What are some of those leadership mistakes?

Wren: Which one didn't I make? I mean, just trying to be a dictator, hollering at people, belittling people. I had such a burning desire to win that I really it was me putting myself first and my needs first and and my ego first and not taking into account that, hey. These these people that work for me, that I'm privileged enough to have on my team, although I didn't look at it at it that way then, it was their privilege to be on my team. Right?

Steve: Well, that's the first step of of leadership.

Wren: Yeah. You know, that they were there to serve the company instead of the company being there to serve them.

Steve: Mhmm.

Wren: You know? And, once that paradigm shift

Steve: Can you remember the first one where we were, like, going back to, like, the first time you completely blew it in a leadership situation?

Wren: I really can't pinpoint it, man. There's Or then what about

Steve: the biggest one?

Wren: The biggest one? I don't know. Let let's circle back to that. Something will come to me. Nothing nothing big comes up, off the top of my head.

But some something will come to me here in a minute.

Steve: But there had to be also, like, a situation, you know, because it's four or five years, we make a lot of mistakes.

Wren: There was a light bulb moment. Right? We were sitting we were sitting in a quarterly, and we had hit a ceiling at the time and, just trying to figure it out and couldn't understand why we weren't hitting our goals. And and Gary Harper was actually there running. If you know Gary, Sharper, he said, you guys don't have a talent problem.

You have a leadership problem. And that really hit home. Right?

Steve: Because now now now the focus, the the crosshairs Mhmm. Are on you guys.

Wren: Yeah. And it really made me reflect because I wanted to do everything. I wanted to be successful. I was challenged, but I was just not I found success early on by doing everything myself. But as our team grew, I continued to try to hold everything, and I continued to try to do everything.

And I continued to be a diminisher, accidentally, of course. Mhmm. But once I understood what he was trying to say because when he first said it, I was like, ah, that's not the problem. I'm a great leader. Best leader there is.

But it sank in, and, I couldn't find a reason why that was not the truth, if that makes sense.

Steve: Mhmm. When was this approximately?

Wren: Probably 2018, 2019.

Steve: So you have Gary Harper coming to your office.

Wren: Mhmm.

Steve: And you're complaining that you were not hitting numbers or not hitting the goals, the metrics.

Wren: Yeah.

Steve: And you're more or less I'm just guessing here, like, our people are inadequate. They're not doing what they're supposed to do. Yeah. And he looks at you as like, that's not the problem.

Wren: That's not the problem. You're the problem.

Steve: And you had to reflect on that. Let that sit. Let me just simmer Yeah. A little bit. Yeah.

How long did it take for you to, like, realize, like, wait. What are you saying is is correct?

Wren: It was probably pretty quick.

Steve: Okay.

Wren: Right?

Steve: Because that's something that that could easily feel you can you can easily become defensive.

Wren: Yeah. And I probably was for a moment. Right? But there was some there was, one particular young lady on my team that I really trusted, and I asked her. I was like, he's he's wrong.

Right? And she's like, no. He's not wrong. Right? And then I think I was open, and then I began to look inward.

And I and I say, hey. Listen. I I really trust her. I trust Gary. I don't think they would steer me wrong.

Right? And then I just got to it, and I do what I do every time I find a deficiency or a skill set that I'm missing is I just start to read, read, read, read, read, read a bunch of John Maxwell books, a bunch of, you know, multipliers is one of the most impactful leadership books that I've ever read, by Liz Wickman.

Steve: Liz Wiseman.

Wren: Liz Wiseman. Yeah. And then we jumped in and and did some training with, Larry Yatch, nanny. And then I really got confused because what I thought leadership was is not how they define it.

Steve: No. It's very different.

Wren: So different.

Steve: I mean, I think correct if I'm wrong. You know? I think a lot of us when we start leadership, we kinda have, like, I'm gonna tell you what

Wren: to do.

Steve: Yeah. And then you execute it. Yep. Right? That's that twentieth century industrial complex, military complex, leadership style, which worked in the twentieth century more or less.

They might not have been high morale, but it worked.

Wren: Sure. Got the job done.

Steve: Right? So you're talking about, like, maybe you watched movie 300, and you're inspired, right, by how they they got things done. You, you know, you face adversity together and so on. Yeah. But that took you only so far.

And one of the, things I've learned from Jason Medley and Larry Ash is, like, what got you here, what got you there?

Wren: Right. Very true.

Steve: Right. So you got that. You had this humbling moment. Mhmm. And you signed up for Larry Ash with SEAL team leaders.

Wren: Yeah. And and to give credit

Steve: the first thing you did? Or you said you read John Maxwell?

Wren: I read a bunch of both. Read went and read a book because it took a little time before we could Larry could get to us. But, and it wasn't just me. Right? It wasn't just me that had the epiphany moment.

We had an executive leadership team, and it was a collective moment where we all seen we fell short in that area. Right? And then we we all rallied together and supported each other and said, hey. This is a deficit that we have as a company, and we're committed to improving it. Right?

And that I think that's what that specific team in that season in our business, that's what made them great. Yeah. Made us great.

Steve: So John Maxwell, I think, is more or less I I look at kinda like the godfather leadership. Right? Like, he's written so many leadership books. Yeah. My favorite of which is, Good Leaders Ask Great Questions.

Yeah. So you go through this journey. So you read the books. You read, Liz Wiseman's Multipliers, which is another amazing

Wren: Amazing.

Steve: Amazing book. When did you start seeing yourself evolve or see things change as a leader?

Wren: As we were going through Larry's training, I think, you know, we signed up for Larry's training because it was SEAL team leaders.

Steve: Same thing as the same reason. Right? I like have a badass SEAL Yeah. To to coach me. Right?

Wren: I like to see myself kinda as a warrior, you know, a Spartan. Like, I'm I'm very intense. I'm very focused. I like to go to war every day. I get up, and I I put my my helmet, and I grab my shield and get after it.

And I was just like, what a perfect fit. This is gonna be great. Like, he's gonna teach me how to be an assassin. And, oh my word, was it the complete opposite? It is.

Right? And it super confused me. Super confused me. But the the very first lesson is where he he begins to talk about language. And I began to realize that I had very bad language.

Not bad as in I ran around cussing all the time, which I probably did, but it was not a language that built people up.

Steve: Mhmm.

Wren: Right? It wasn't a language that, by natural distinction, raised all the ships, if that makes sense. Right?

Steve: Makes total sense.

Wren: Yeah. And so we immediately changed our language, and language is so dynamic. Right? And he talks about this. He talks about this in his new book, how leadership actually works.

But, you know, I could say, hey. Go grab a phone. And depending on who you are, you could grab two different things.

Steve: Right.

Wren: You know? Actually, you could grab multiple things because your compute you could grab your computer. You could grab a cell phone. Or you could go

Steve: grab cell phone on my laptop.

Wren: Yeah. You could go grab it. So, you know, it's so dynamic, and and and he goes on to teach about distinctions and having distinctions in your language. So we started to recognize that, and we started to understand that you can be a leader, a follower, or a manager Mhmm. And still be a CEO or COO or director.

And that was inspiring to me and humbling and eye opening and all the other, things that come along with that. But I I think that it was it was a huge paradigm shift for our entire team. We all try to start to kinda teach treating each other different, speaking to each other different, and it opened up a whole can of worms with, NLP for me and just really being hyper focused on language and positivity. And, it was a it was a really pivotal moment in my professional career.

Steve: One of the things you talked about, you know, leader, follower, manager, for me, like, it's actually a relief.

Wren: Mhmm.

Steve: Because I feel like I have to be a leader all the time. Yeah. It's how I felt.

Wren: Yep.

Steve: But reality is depending on the situation, I can be a leader, I can be a manager, or a follower.

Wren: Yep.

Steve: I just need to make sure that everyone around me is clear, and I'm communicating to them which hat I'm wearing.

Wren: Yeah.

Steve: I'm a leader, follower, and manager.

Wren: Yeah. There was another principle too, and I I don't remember where I picked it up. Maybe you'll you'll recognize it, know where I got it. But, somebody that I really respect or a book that I I really thought highly of, it says you don't have to be right all the time. And the best thing to do is to tell as the leader of the organization and is to admit and be vulnerable to your team Mhmm.

That, hey. I'm I mess up a lot. In fact, I'm probably the biggest knucklehead in the organization. Mhmm. Right?

And that's okay. I'll ask you for grace when I mess up, and I promise I'll give it back when you mess up. And I think that was a big stress or, a big lever that relieved a lot of pressure because I felt like I always had to be right. I felt like I always had to have the answers. Mhmm.

And that's one of those accidental diminisher moments you don't. And, actually, great leaders, they put it back on their people

Steve: to help

Wren: come up with creative solutions. It's often the frontline workers are the ones that have the most creative and unique and innovative ideas because they're in the they're in the grind every day. I like

Steve: to say,

Wren: the magic's in the mud. Right? Go play in the mud.

Steve: Must be a south southern saying.

Wren: No. It's just of something I made up. But

Steve: Okay. So then, so you started diving deep into leadership and, you know, getting better at it. When did you see a shift throughout the organization from the, like, a I guess, a, when you see the culture change, and b, when you see the results change.

Wren: Yeah. So we continued to the culture began to change as our language changed, and we began to really lean into our core values. And, we also got really big on accountability. I think we were sitting in an l 10 at one point in time, completely avoiding all of the problems because it was uncomfortable to discuss. Yeah.

And, somebody just said, we're we're just we're not talking about any real issues here. And I had been thinking it for the past three or four weeks. Like, these l tens are a waste of time. And in fact, if you ever think your l tens are a waste of time, you're avoiding the issues. Yeah.

Steve: It probably is because you're not using it.

Wren: Yeah. You're avoid it is a waste of time. And that was that was huge. And there was a couple team members on the team at that time that probably weren't a great fit, right, and and and would have been offended or felt challenged for bringing up issues. And so we made some shifts there, and we started holding each other accountable.

And, you know, there were some conversations had that, hey. We gotta step it up. Like, we have so much potential, so many great people, so many talented people, but we're doing ourselves a disjustice by not talking about the hard stuff, by not addressing the elephant in the room, by not using all of this wonderful information is at our fingertips. And, you know, I said, we're we're actually being lazy, guys. We're taking the easy way out, which is making our lives and our business exponentially more tough.

Steve: Right. You gotta rip off the Band Aid

Wren: at some point. Exactly.

Steve: So the other thing too is, you know, we're talking about you've hired over 250 sales reps.

Wren: That's a guess, but, maybe maybe even a conservative guess.

Steve: So I imagine that was pretty easy.

Wren: No. No? No. I'm not Phil Green. It's not pretty easy to hire.

They got it down to a science.

Steve: So you've hired over 250. You've kept over 50

Wren: Mhmm.

Steve: Along the way. So, what were some of the biggest challenges when you first started hiring salespeople?

Wren: The management portion of it. Right? You know, it it's like anything else. People are people. They're all greatly different.

Steve: Mhmm.

Wren: They all have different personalities. They all have different strengths and weaknesses, and, and it's tough to understand. You you you kinda wanna put it into a box and manage everyone the same way, which, again, is taking the easy path. Right? That that would be avoiding the the tough work.

But, so that was you know, the onboarding was tough. The the training the sales training was tough. And then the continued management and and getting them to perform and keeping them bought in to what we were trying to do. Because it's very easy to sell somebody on coming to work for you.

Steve: Yeah.

Wren: Right? It becomes increasingly difficult at scale to keep them sold on the vision when you as a leader aren't always walking the walk that you portrayed in the beginning.

Steve: Which is really easy to do if you're selling it hard.

Wren: Yes.

Steve: Yeah. So let's talk about, you know, the first few hires. What were some of the things you learned with your first few hires?

Wren: Well, I don't know about things I learned with the first few, but, eventually, I learned that I have to stop selling this job.

Steve: Alright. So You know? Can you elaborate, like, what selling this job means?

Wren: Well, yeah. I mean, I would say things like, hey. You can come here and make a quarter of $1,300,000 a year. I'm gonna teach you everything I know about real estate. You're gonna have 20 qualified appointments on your calendar, and all you gotta do is go get them to sign a contract.

You know, just things like that. Right? And then they what you're doing then is setting false expectations because we all know that a third of that may be half true. Right? You're gonna get some qualified appointments.

Steve: Is half true.

Wren: A third of that is half true. Could you make $250,000? Of course. Mhmm. Will you make $250,000?

Well, maybe 5% of your staff will

Steve: Mhmm.

Wren: From an acquisitions or dispositions stance. And so we just kinda shifted and started saying, hey. We got a great culture, and we help a ton of people. This is how we help them, but this job is freaking hard. I'm hard to work for.

I have a high standard of excellence. It'll be very rewarding and very challenging, and you're gonna learn a skill set, but you're not gonna get qualified appointments. You're gonna have to fight for them. You're gonna have to dig for them. You know, essentially, everything that we were selling, we tried to, you know

Steve: Undo it.

Wren: Undo it.

Steve: Went the opposite direction.

Wren: And, of course, not all of that was true, but once they got in, we price anchored them is essentially what we did.

Steve: Yeah.

Wren: And so once they got in, they're like, oh, this isn't as bad as he said. And then the expectations were this pie in the sky, almost undeliverable.

Steve: And we went from overpromising and undelivering Mhmm. To underpromising and overdelivering.

Wren: And overdelivering.

Steve: A much better experience for yourself.

Wren: Better experience.

Steve: So then that's the sourcing side.

Wren: Mhmm.

Steve: What about you know, I think one of the biggest challenges people have is, like, Wren I meet Wren, you know, and event. And I say, you know what? This guy, I think he's got some talent. I'm gonna hire I'm gonna recruit him to work for me as my as my acquisition guy.

Wren: Right.

Steve: And then lo and behold, nine months later after after I teach Brent everything I know, Brent's competing against me in my market.

Wren: Oh, yeah. It happens.

Steve: So talk to me about what you guys have done to effectively made it make that less desirable for them to go do?

Wren: Well, one thing we did is we asked better questions in the interview process, and we tried to understand, are we hiring an entrepreneur? Are we hiring an employee? Mhmm. Right? Because there's a difference.

You you may have an an employee with entrepreneurial tendencies, but an entrepreneur is an entrepreneur. Right? They're gonna they're gonna see it. They're gonna innovate it, and they're gonna try to go do it. And we wanna understand if that's the case because I think everybody should have the right if they want to go start their own business.

Mhmm. And in fact, I've shifted my mindset through some previous experiences recently that I'll I'll help you do it. I want you to go do it. And I want you to tell me, and let's get a extra strategy together and then go. Right?

But we don't we don't wanna we want to create an environment where they don't wanna leave. Mhmm. Right? Where we give them we understand their why. We understand why are they there to make a paycheck.

Because that paycheck's only the vehicle to help them accomplish their goals and their dreams. And if I can do that within the company where they don't have to leave, I'll I'll have better retention, I'll have better tenure, and I'll have a better culture.

Steve: Yeah.

Wren: Right? Because if they're leaving to go do their own thing, they're seeking something that you're not giving them there at your company Right. Which could be a a bazillion different things. Right? It could be it could be anything.

And so just asking better questions on the front end. And one once they're there, understanding what they need and and continuing to challenge them, great people wanna be challenged. A players wanna be held accountable, and and and they want to continue to receive nourishment, if you will. You have to keep nourishing the nourishing their soul. Yeah.

That make sense? Does that answer your question?

Steve: I feel like I've took

Wren: the long way around there.

Steve: What are what are two or three things that you guys have done intentionally to to make sure you're retaining top talent?

Wren: So I I think I I learned a great lesson. I have a buddy of mine that owns a Chick fil A, and everyone's experienced Chick fil A. And you know that they're probably the only one of very few fast food chains that do it right. You go there, you have a great experience. And so I really try to suck as much information out of that guy that he would give me, which was very little.

But the one thing that I did get is in the back of their restaurant, they have a career path from how you can go from a cashier all the way up to a proprietor to a to a owner of a particular location. And so I I think that people wanna know what is their path forward. They wanna feel like if I choose to put in the work, can I progress and better my career and myself and my position in life? And that was one thing. Mhmm.

Right? We gave a path. Probably wasn't as well defined as as we would have liked it to be, but they knew because there was also and we told the stories of other employees that have had risen up, you know, through the ranks and started, you know, one gal specifically. You know, she was making 30 k, and she's up making over 200 leading a whole division. Start as a lead manager, become a, you know, a higher up executive.

So, giving them that path forward, continuing to challenge them in the right ways, and and showing them that if you do the right things, here's the reward, and this is how you continue to sow the seeds of success, not only in your own life, but in others. You know? Right. So so we let we're big on on on sharing and and each and building that team and building that camaraderie and then giving them an identity. Right?

I think that many companies are blind to the fact that, well, let let's start here. Right? I had this paradigm shift one time sitting in church. I was trying to hire a videographer. We needed some content, and I could not find one.

And if I did find one, they wouldn't show up for an interview. And I was like, man, I must not be offering enough money. So we, like, jacked that up, like, $75,000 for a guy to come in and shoot content. Still nothing. Right?

And so I'm sitting in church one day, and I'm looking around, And I go to a pretty big church in Alabama. You know, there's one on every corner. But, I just because video production's on my mind, I really start to notice how great the video production in our church is. Yeah. And then I'm looking.

I'm like, these are the greatest musicians around. This is the greatest production quality. Oh my god. There's, like, 15 camera dudes running around with Converse and and hipster clothes on, and I'm like, they're probably here for free. Yeah.

What are they doing right that I'm doing wrong? And then I was like, well, God. Yeah. They're here for God. Of course.

And I said, well, I you know, I'm not that. But then I asked another question. Well, what is god? Mhmm. And you could say it's a higher power creating the being or whatever, but what is that?

And if you break it down to the micro and what is what is the church, It's a community. It's connection. It's love, and it's a place where people come together to make the world a better place. And I said, that's it. If I can offer those things, community, connection, identity, and betterment of society, maybe these guys will come work for me for free too.

Mhmm. Right?

Steve: Yeah. Absolutely.

Wren: And that was big. That was huge. And and we changed our entire we we rewrote our core values at that time. We changed kind of our mission statements and things like that, and we started to attract those type of people.

Steve: Yeah. Right? I mean, he has a few more resources than you. Right?

Wren: Yes. Yes. Few more recruiters. Few more few more recruiters than me. Yeah.

But if you break it down, it's that simple, man. People want connection.

Steve: Right. They wanna resonate. They want purpose.

Wren: They want purpose.

Steve: Common purpose. Mhmm. We had someone that used to work here, and someone said, you know, like, okay. It's like, what's his qualification? Oh, he works at the church.

Yeah. It's like and the last time I'd been at church was, like, 1999. You know? I was like, so he knows how to plug, like, a microphone into, like, a speaker. Like, who cares?

Wren: Yeah.

Steve: But we hired him on, and he was good. He was a great audio engineer. And then then I went to a baptism. I don't know. It was, like, earlier this year or late last year.

Mhmm. I was like, woah. This this is a concert.

Wren: Yeah. It's This is not a They have great talent in churches. Talent. And most of them are there working for free in service of their higher power or for very minimum wages.

Steve: Yep. So that was for we're talking about retention and management. So there's some overlap. Mhmm. Right?

The other thing too is, you know, you gave a great presentation at Collective Genius, I wanna say, six, nine months ago, maybe a year ago. Mhmm. Right? And it talked about in points of culture, and part of that was, like, making a great first impression. Can you talk about that?

Wren: Yeah. So we've all started a job before and shown up, and you had that first awkward day, right, where you walk into an office. You don't know anybody. Everybody's looking around at you. They don't really know why you're there.

You don't have the company logo on your chest yet, and you walk up and ask, hey. Where's John? He's not here yet. John was the person that you were told to meet up with, and you're like, well, heck. What do I do?

It's really awkward. Right? And so that's the employee or the candidate's first impression of that company, whether they mentally or consciously think to themselves, oh, this place sucks. But subconsciously, it's rooted in their impression, in their memory that this wasn't maybe what it was sold to me to be. Mhmm.

Right? And I just had this idea one day. I'm like, what if what if their first day is like a ballet? It's strung together, and it's just seamless, and it's perfect. And how can we really make that person, that candidate, that employee feel like just wow, just blown away?

Kinda like the Chick fil A experience.

Steve: You know?

Wren: Like, hey. They're they're out at your window taking the order. And so, you know, we put in some some things that I call pretty sneaky, ninja tricks in in the in the interview process, asking just particular questions, you know, things that they wouldn't think anything of. Hey. Hey.

By the way, what's your favorite coffee? I was grabbing Starbucks this morning. They had a new coffee out. Right? And, the final product ended up being, you know, them being met down either at their car at the elevator with their favorite cup of coffee and being escorted upstairs to find a shirt in their size and their favorite candy bar with a notebook with their favorite quote on the inside.

And it just creates such a different experience, employee experience. Right? And and what do you think happened when they got home on that first day? What do you think they did on their job call?

Steve: Company ambassador.

Wren: Exactly. They called someone. Mhmm. And they said, oh my lord. You're not gonna believe my first day at this place.

And that piques so and so's interest, and then they start researching, thinking, hey. Is this a place I wanna go work? Yeah. And so we're and we're doing that to attract top talent because top talent wants to be won and done. Mhmm.

Right? They know they're good. It's like the hot chick in the bar, she knows she's hot. You better buy her a beer. You're not gonna walk up to the hot chick and say, hey.

Buy me a drink. Don't work that way.

Steve: I I don't know. I think we can make that work. But, yeah, you're absolutely right. The I remember my very first day, couple times, right, at at a company. And, like, okay.

You show up at 08:30 or 8AM, right, because you think that's the right you don't know it's your first day. You don't know

Wren: supposed to show up. Yeah. And you get there.

Steve: You're there before everybody else, and you wait for your boss to show up. And I I think I was, like, showing up at eight 08:30 on my very first day at work. My boss doesn't roll until, like, eleven, 11:30 or not roll in, but, like, doesn't meet with me. Yeah. It's like you just kinda twiddling your thumbs.

Like

Wren: Sit there. It's awkward.

Steve: Sit there. You don't have your laptop. You don't have nothing. You're just kinda sitting there.

Wren: Yeah. And and the cool thing about my experience in all of this is, like and I've heard you say this before. None of these ideas are original or proprietary.

Steve: Mhmm.

Wren: Right? Everything that I've just described, there's been instances in life that have kinda smacked me in the face and reminded me, but, like, that whole first day dance come from sales boss. Yeah. Right? He outlines everything to create that brand ambassador in his book, which has been consumed by millions and millions of people.

He actually came to our office. He said, I heard about you guys. Mhmm. And I heard how well you've implemented the practices in this book, and I just gotta see it. I can't remember.

What's the author's name of the sales book? He came

Steve: Wisman, I think?

Wren: Wisman. Yeah. He came to our offices because he wanted to see it in real life because we took I took my team, and I said, hey. Everything in this book, step by step, we have to do it. Mhmm.

And we did it, and it's still talked about. Like, people still come up and they say, man, I just can't believe, like, you know, just the smallest little weird things that people really remember, the quote being in the notebook that you bought me. I had forgot my pen on the first day because I was nervous, but you had me a pen with the color ink that I preferred. Like, that was so neat. Yeah.

You know what I mean? Like, the me, one thing one trick that I always did was I got the recruiters to add the person's start date with their name. And so when I passed them in the hall, I could say, hey, Steve. I'm so glad you're here.

Steve: Mhmm.

Wren: And that I got more feedback that that blew people away that I already the COO, the CEO, whatever my role was at that time, knew their name. And when I passed them in the hallway, I addressed them by name. And that it's those little moments, those little micro moments in time that set the stage for those brand ambassadors.

Steve: You know, it's, interesting talking about, like, we know. Right? But we don't, there's not a lot of original ideas. We We got to listen to Jeff Hoffman yesterday Mhmm. Speak on on the main stage.

He talked about, like, visiting your customers and this and that. And as I'm listening to him, I was like, this guy sounds exactly like Sam Walton. You know? The guy that created one of the biggest empires, right, Walmart and Sam's Club was all done by Sam Walton. They're like, if you take all his four kids or whatever and combine their wealth, they're like top five.

Wren: Yeah.

Steve: And he built that by flying around the country and talking to customers. Yeah. Right? So I'm listening to Jeff talk about this. Like, he just did exactly what Sam Walton did.

That's pretty cool.

Wren: Yep.

Steve: And then, like, a couple slides later, shows a picture of Sam Walton. It's like, okay. And he's and I actually asked him about that in the hallway. He's like, yeah. I've heard that story.

I heard that story a long time ago. And guess what? It's not a new idea. Mhmm. But how many people have done it?

And he built Priceline

Wren: Yeah.

Steve: With that.

Wren: I find it pretty interesting. And all of the successful titans of industry, they leave clues. Yeah. They leave clues. The times may be different, but the principles remain the same.

Right? You told me something earlier. What was the quote you gave me earlier that

Steve: Oh, Jason Lewis? Yeah. Yeah. The the quote my quote for the event for the last three days was that you don't need to learn anymore if you can just close the gap between what you know and what you do. Mhmm.

There's a lot of money in there.

Wren: Yeah. That's so true. Right? We know all the things. I mean, how many books have you read?

Steve: I don't know. A couple 100. Yeah.

Wren: What if you just went if you'd never read another book and went back and implemented everything that you had learned in these books, you would be you would find more success than I

Steve: would be selling hundreds and thousands of millions of books

Wren: That's right.

Steve: If I could just execute everything I learned

Wren: That's right.

Steve: From those I had

Wren: a, I used to read for sport. Right? I would every year, I would post a list of how many books I read, and it was it was a lot. And I had a a mentor, Howard Shore is actually his name. He's a a scaling up coach.

And, he said, stop it. Right? There's a there's a funny Saturday night live skit. Stop it. And I said, what what do you mean?

What do you mean? It's my superpower's reading all these books. He was like, man, how many books have you how many books in your Audible right now? I'm like, like, 800. He's like, open one up.

The most recent one you've read. And I said, okay. And I went, and I think it was sales acceleration formula. I I remember it very specifically. And he said, you're done with the book?

I'm like, yeah. He goes, alright. Give me four principles from that book that you've implemented in your business.

Steve: Called you out right there.

Wren: Called me out. And I said, well, Howard, I I don't think I've implemented anything. And he said, well, why read it? So you can hang it up on your bookshelf and so it looks cool. You know?

And so it was it was pretty interesting taking that and and thinking and sitting on it. Right? Because these books, they're so great, but nobody actually implements the things that they tell them to do. Yeah. Right?

And so what he said he does is he goes, I I read, like, two books a quarter, and I don't move on to the next book till I've extracted some principles, and I've implemented them into my business. Yeah. And so it slowed my reading down tremendously. I don't feel like I need to read for sport anymore, But that that's the thing, and that's why we got really good with what we did is we would just execute on a level that that others would only talk about.

Steve: But there's so much of the keeping up with the Joneses. Right?

Wren: Like, read

Steve: this book. Read that book. Have you read this book? Yep. It's it's tough.

So another thing we talked about was, you know, being able to do triple digit transactions. Now I'm not even doing triple digits a year. Mhmm. Right? I'm one of the smaller folks within Collective Genius.

Wren: Right.

Steve: To do a 100 plus transactions in a month, it sounds almost ludicrous. Probably broke a few things.

Wren: Broke everything.

Steve: Yeah. So let's talk about, like, what were some of the three, four, maybe five key things that helped you to do that?

Wren: Having the right people in the right seat is the number one. Backed by the right culture and the right purpose. Right? You'll you'll find that when people have an aligned purpose, they'll work and tolerate exponentially more than if there is no purpose at all. You know?

And if you can attract people to that purpose and you all have a common goal and you believe in what you're doing, it becomes a lot more fun to do it. Right. You know what I mean? And and so that's the first thing is getting the right people on your organization and making sure that they're bought into what you're doing. Making sure you're doing something good.

Right? If your people and and and, look, wholesaling can be looked at many different ways.

Steve: Yeah.

Wren: Right? I'm a big believer that it really serves a purpose, and it really helps people. But I've I've had people in my organization before, heard them say it. Y'all are stealing houses. I know that's not true.

We're trading equity for solutions.

Steve: Right.

Wren: Right? And we're not putting a gun to anyone's head to sign a contract. But I've also had people in my organization that say we changed lives. Mhmm. We gave this old lady who had nothing to eat that was falling through her floor a safe place to stay and food for three months.

Right? And that's the difference in doing in in hitting a ceiling and spinning out and just going to the moon.

Steve: Right. So rights right people in the right seats.

Wren: Chasing the right mission. A common believed upon mission.

Steve: And that one is really deep to unravel, but we'll just say that's one point.

Wren: Yeah. Second second thing is you're a sales and marketing organization. You gotta have salespeople. Yeah. You know, there's so many folks, and they say, I wanna do big numbers, but I don't wanna manage salespeople.

They're a nightmare. And believe me, they can be when you take the wrong approach.

Steve: I've said that before Yeah. More than once.

Wren: It it's it's tough. People are hard to manage. Mhmm. Especially salespeople.

Steve: Yeah. I was talking to someone the other day. They're like, why don't you go do this? It's like, because of course hiring more humans. Yeah.

Right? And, Yeah. There's there's there's hiring people, and there's hiring salespeople. It's like I don't know. It's like, I I can't think of a good example, but it's like it's another level of difficulty.

This is like Sure. Right? Like, I'm like, you're hiring, like, administrative people. You're you're hard. You're you're the hard difficulty.

Right? Like Yeah. Implementing systems

Wren: It's expert level.

Steve: Right? Yeah. Like, there's medium. Right? Also, hiring people is is is hard.

Mhmm. And hiring salespeople yeah, I gotta be expert because not only are you managing people, but you manage people that are going through lots of emotions. Yes. Because the cycle of a transaction can

Wren: Go up and down.

Steve: Can be a roller coaster.

Wren: Yeah. So I'm a big believer in building a very large Salesforce. Mhmm. Right? Because just as you just said, it's up and it's down, but you find consistent a consistent revenue model, and it's only stabilized when you have x number of salespeople per your quota goals, which is typically about a 150%.

So if I wanna hit, say, a 100 transactions a month, I need enough salespeople by their KPIs on average to do a 150. And then you kinda find a consistent sustainable revenue model, and and then you also have to account for the churn. Your bottom 3030% are gonna churn. You know, I have a rule of thirds. 33% of your people are crushing it and happy, and they're attracting other people to the team.

The other 33% are neutral. Maybe they're winning, maybe they're losing. You ask them on any given day how they feel about working for Rann and, you know, the other bottom half, they're looking for another job. You ask them about their job. I hate it.

They don't give you leads. The training's awful. Ren's awful. His breath stinks. He's ugly.

You know? The leads suck. Yeah. The leads suck. The opportunities suck.

The lead managers suck. The management sucks. And so you just have to understand that. And it's any organization. Right?

There's a there's a couple great books out there, Who Moved My Cheese, and Our Iceberg is Melting, all talking change management. And both both of those books bring back to the rule of third principle. You know, you're gonna have your hems and you're gonna have your haws. Yeah. So you just have to understand it and account for it and hire up, snap up.

Steve: The salespeople. We're talking about sales and marketing, but we're talking about salespeople there.

Wren: Well, sales. And then you gotta you gotta provide opportunities for your salespeople, and they have to be able to capture those opportunities and turn it into revenue.

Steve: Yeah.

Wren: Right? And so if we added two more, it'll be good training program, good management program, and you gotta produce the opportunities.

Steve: Got it. And we're gonna talk about the managing program in just a second. So before we get into questions, I wanna talk about also the whole person perspective because I've heard you talk about it, and it's a very interesting

Wren: Mhmm.

Steve: Point when we're talking about, you know, management. What is the whole person perspective?

Wren: Yeah. So the whole person perspective is kind of an ideology that I've strung together in dealing with people in general. Right? This this isn't just towards managing salespeople, but managing anyone or being a part of anyone's life. Right?

The person that shows up to work every day, that's 25% of who they are. Mhmm. Right? They're only at work probably about 25% of their time, if that. The other 75% is how they show up to work, to be your employee, to wear that logo on your chest.

Right? And so and everybody has stuff going on in in life. Right? Maybe they're fighting with their kids. Maybe they're fighting with their wife.

Maybe they don't have any any, maybe they're having financial issues. Right? And you have to know the person. And kinda where this this come from is one day we're sitting in a meeting, and I'm I'm with all the people that I directly report to me. And we're having sales rep problem.

Right? There's always sales rep problem. But I'm I'm listening, and I'm listening, I'm listening, and they bring up one rep specifically. And it was said, I don't know what's wrong with this guy. He's just not performing, and he used to be a top performer.

And I said, it's funny you say his name because he called me yesterday. Right? And I'm pretty well removed from running the sales team at this time. And, I said, did you know that he's having a problem at home? And you guys have just shifted the pay plan, and he's freaking out.

And, there's some things going on. Did you know that? And, they said, well, you can't you no. I didn't know that. And should I know that?

You can't know all the people that report to you that way. I said, really? I said, yeah. It's impossible. And I went around the room.

There was eight of them in a room, and I told them exactly how much money was in each one of their bank accounts within $10,000 and how much they thought whether they thought they made enough and their jaws dry. Right? Because I let and they said, how the hell did you know that? I said, well, I listened to you. When you talk, I'm listening, and I'm collecting data so I can be a better servant to you.

Mhmm. Right? And we went through and we'd done some research from that, but we really tried to understand our people, and we strung that together. And I'm like, man, you're a servant to the people who who work under you. And part of the way that and and they respect you and admire you as a leader and and and as a mentor, they probably wouldn't work for you.

And so it's your job as a leader to serve them in whatever capacity they need served in the season that they are in right now. Yeah. Whether they're having financial hardships or whether they just got a $30,000 paycheck. Right? I'll give you example of both.

Well, I just gave you example of the dude having the hardship, but I've seen a rep one time get, like, a $35,000 pay big paycheck. And I called him, and I just knew the first year I made real money, I had a big tax bill coming. Right? I didn't know it until I got it. I told him, I said, hey.

Steve: Price for every 1099%.

Wren: I said, hey, man. Congratulations. What are you gonna do with your money? And he had had it all spent already. And I said, well, you know, you gotta pay taxes on that money.

What? I gotta pay how much? Well, I don't know on your particular situation, but this is about what I pay. And he's like, woah. No.

No. No. No. I'm like, man, you probably do some research, talk to an accountant, something like that. And he called me at the end of the year, and he said, dude, thank you so much.

Like, if you wouldn't have called me that day, I would be in real hot water right now. But I did what you said, and I talked to an accountant, and I started putting a percentage of every paycheck up. And it it it really just went back and solidified that you gotta be there when your people are winning, and you gotta be there when you're losing. Mhmm. But unless you're listening and paying attention and being a servant leader, you're gonna miss those opportunities.

Steve: Yeah. Right? Very powerful.

Wren: So bringing and closing that loop on the whole person perspective is like paying attention and being there for the whole person, not just the employee. And if you can do that, you will build more trust, more loyalty, and more understanding. And when you have those pillars, you get performance. And that goes back to why are your people not leaving and going and starting their own business because they have that.

Steve: Now that is super deep.

Wren: Yeah. It's a

Steve: lot to unpack there as well. What are one or two things they can do intentionally to make sure they can do that at least to the best of their abilities?

Wren: Care. You truly have to be the greatest leaders on earth really care

Steve: Yeah.

Wren: I think. Right? Think about it. Who are the great name name a great mother Teresa, doctor Martin Luther King. Like, there's two that just come to mind.

Who cared more than them? Like, doctor King got shot trying to do you know, like, he he put himself in a position like that. Who cared more than those two great leaders? Yeah. Right?

And so I think it starts there. You really, really, really have to truly care, and then you have to listen. Right? You have to listen. You have to pay attention.

And I think you just have to keep it it's really hard for me, and it was early on, and I had to learn humility. Right? I I walked into my office one day, and there was a sticky note that said humility before honor on my computer screen. And it was probably because I'd been a little bit of an ass the day before. Yeah.

But I kept that sticky note. I still have it.

Steve: Yeah. You're somewhat.

Wren: Yeah. I still have it. Yeah. It's it's a bookmark in, one of my Napoleon Hill books, but humility before honor. So I think you gotta care.

You gotta have empathy, and you gotta listen to your people because they'll tell you exactly how to manage them. They'll tell you how to make them successful. They leave clues just like all the great times of industry.

Steve: Yeah. That's brilliant. So, before, we get into the questions, guys, please ask your questions. Before we get into the questions, we're gonna share a quick announcement. So let's go ahead and roll it here.

Hey. Steve Trang here. A lot of you have been asking me for sales management training. I didn't feel quite right teaching it, but I found the perfect guy to teach it for us. So, Wren, tell us about it.

Wren: Steve, we're gonna be introducing some really intense fundamentals and philosophy behind the management of sales teams. Have a ton of experience building really high performance sales teams and really taking a little bit of this and a little bit of that management practices and theories from all over the place and brought them together to create a unique whole person perspective that drives low performers to high performers and elite caliber salespeople into sales champions. And couldn't be more excited to partner with you on it and the sales disruptors brand.

Steve: For sure. So go to disruptors.com/success, and we'll see you at the next event. Hey. Steve Trang here. A lot of you have been asking me for sales management training.

So, we got a few comments and questions already. Pretty cool. So on Instagram, W Music says, two most respected guys in space, no better operating game than Wren. So very nice compliment. On Facebook, we got Ryan Zolin.

He's saying that I feel, feel, feel, feel, feel, feel, more bodies meant more production. Right? That's not that's not an unusual, concept. So it's cool it's cool to see a situation where it succeeded. It sounds like you had much better structure than it did at the time.

So question from, on Facebook from Dean McCall. What is an l 10?

Wren: An l 10 is the weekly leadership meeting. So it it comes from EOS operation How much are you operating? Entrepreneurial operating system. But it's the weekly leadership meeting. Right?

It's where you sit down. There's a strict agenda. It's good news, customer employee headlines, metrics, IDS, identify, discuss, solve, close out. And it's where your team comes together on a weekly basis and solves problems. They review the metrics.

They look for you know, there's a bunch of different stoplight report, metronome, whatever. But it it's it's the weekly meeting that moves the needle in in short.

Steve: Yeah. I I would say that it is the most impactful meeting we have in the week. Yeah. Right? Like, we have sometimes we have our discovery meetings because we can't figure this out in ten minutes.

Mhmm. But, yeah, the the only way for the business to move forward is to intentionally resolve the issues that are, are are getting in the way of us accomplishing our goals.

Wren: Yeah. And if it's not the most impactful meeting, you're doing it wrong. You have the wrong people or you're hiding from accountability.

Steve: Yeah. The another book, The Five Dysfunctions of a Team. Mhmm. Right? The ability to have difficult conversations.

I would say that one's a really good one. Another one other one too, right, is, what was Larry Yachts' title? Book.

Wren: How Leadership Actually Works.

Steve: How Leadership Actually Works. Right? When everyone here organization is free to challenge everyone else in the organization Yeah. Game changer.

Wren: It is. It it very much is. But it starts with the basic principles that five to function dysfunctions of a team. You have to have trust. If you and I are working together and I don't trust you, I'm not gonna challenge you, right, for whatever reason.

Exactly. I may be scared that you're gonna fire me or that you're gonna excommunicate me or you're gonna go talk trash behind my bat. But if I trust you, I will then put us in a position to have a constructive conversation for the betterment of the organization.

Steve: Right.

Wren: Right?

Steve: Absolutely. Tim Serpe on YouTube wants to know, what were the struggles growing, expanding into new markets?

Wren: Yeah. All of them. You know, we we rob from Peter, to pay Paul early on. You know

Steve: I've had that experience.

Wren: Yeah. Yeah. So, you know, taking resources from one office to another, that was a struggle. Management remote management can be tough. Right?

When you have offices all over the country, on a cost structure, sometimes it's tough to afford to put leadership, a real leader, in those offices. And so that that can be tough maintaining the culture, and and, you know, just the blocking and tackling of the business, understanding the market. Hey. This house, we can pay for it over here, and over here, we can't. Right?

And construction costs vary greatly from state to state. Right? Whereas in Phoenix

Steve: Zero cost.

Wren: You know? You might be able to renovate a 2,500 square foot house full cosmetic for $40, but up in Flagstaff, it may cost you 65. That impacts your numbers. Right? So you have to know that.

And then there's some state to state, regulation around title work and stuff like that. But the biggest challenge is, I think, in scaling a sales organization is understanding that it you gotta have the right people, and you gotta hire quick, and you gotta train quick, and you have to give them the resources that they need to be successful, then get the heck out of their way. Yeah. You know? Larry says you you micromanage a underperforming team, and you don't manage a performing team.

Yeah. Let them manage themselves. High functioning individuals have self management. Self regulation, I believe, is what he calls it. Right?

Steve: Exactly. So so you you said something in there about having leaders in each location. Mhmm. That's something you guys did? That's something you guys struggled with?

What does that mean?

Wren: I mean, we we we definitely, struggled with it when we started, you know, growing outward. But, no, we we tried to manage remotely. Right? It it works. You just gotta you gotta move around.

You gotta stay present. You gotta stay relevant. Right? We're we're moving towards a more remote world, and that's a a piece of the puzzle that folks gotta really figure out. How do I manage someone when they're not sitting next to me every day?

Steve: Yeah. Other thing too. Right? I mean, people want you to be present, and how do you how are you present in a Zoom meeting? Yeah.

That's like for me, I've had so many people like, Steve, you know, you're doing this, this, and this. Why don't you expand? Why don't you do have multiple offices? I'm talking about just in Phoenix. Right?

Wren: Like Yeah.

Steve: You're you're I'm in Tempe. Why don't you have a location on in Peoria? Why don't you have a location in in Downtown Phoenix? Why don't you have a location here and there? And I said, like, I don't believe I'm a leader qualified to have my culture built Yeah.

Into each one of these offices. Like, the main hub will have the culture to the best of my ability. Mhmm. But the culture, I don't believe this could be a limiting belief. I don't believe all the other tertiary offices, secondary offices, they have the same level of culture and accountability and leadership as the main hub.

Wren: For you specifically?

Steve: For me as a leader.

Wren: Yeah. Yeah. Because I disagree with that as a broad statement. You gotta have brand champions. Mhmm.

And how well you build those brand champions is how well your culture will, expand. Right? How it'll be in other offices. And and, you know, I I know other organizations or and other businesses that that are common to most people. I know, you know, going back to to Chick fil A, for example, I keep using them.

But I know some Chick fil A locations, they're exceptionally well ran from a cultural standpoint and some that are poor. Right? I think too that, the better aligned the employees are with your mission and the more that they understand it, the more that they're bought into it Mhmm. That the more that that's what strengthens the culture.

Steve: Yeah. Well, I think a key word there you said was understand. Right? Like, that's the one thing I learned. Not one thing, but one of the biggest things I learned from Larry Atch was that everyone has to understand the why.

Mhmm. Right? It's not this is what we do. It's not how we do it. Those are important too.

Yeah. This is why we do it. Do we do this?

Wren: Why we do it.

Steve: And now everyone's aligned.

Wren: Yeah. Yeah. So, yeah, I mean, look. There's everything that you could think go wrong with expanding. It it goes wrong.

But, I think the better question is, what did you do right? And, we were relentless, and we moved quick. Yeah. When we found a deficit, when we found something that wasn't working, we figured out how to fix it.

Steve: So CC Wood here asked what's the name of the book. So we've mentioned a lot of books here, so I'm just gonna rattle them off. There was traction, multipliers, sales acceleration formula, sales boss, good leaders ask great questions about the books that we talked about here.

Wren: I think that I think that covers it. Multipliers. Did we say multipliers? Multipliers. Yeah.

You did. Okay.

Steve: Yeah. Alright. So, hopefully, Cece, that answers your question. And then, Ivan Hernandez on YouTube, got the chance to work with Wren, and the culture that was built in the company is next to none. That's awesome.

Fantastic.

Wren: Job, Ivan.

Steve: So Ry on YouTube. How come you guys didn't go nationwide?

Wren: You know, I I think that was always the dream and the vision. Right? And, I'm not with the company any longer, and and I don't know what their future plans are. But, the goal is always to be as big as we could we could be. You know?

It takes time. There's a saying that a lot of people overestimate what they can do in two years and underestimate what they can do in ten. And, you know, even one of one of my biggest take you and I spoke about our takeaways, and and I left, I think, the most important one out, and it's listening, sitting and listening to all the people in Collective Genius. And there's people that are been in the real estate game one year, and there's OGs that have been in the real estate game fifty, sixty years.

Steve: Yeah.

Wren: And, they it it's sustainable. It's it's it's hanging in there. It's being consistent, right, was was a big takeaway for me that I left out in our conversation earlier. It's like, but can you survive through the good times and the down times? Right?

And so, you know, I think that you can accomplish anything. If if a company wants to go nationwide, they can and they will, but you gotta live through rough market conditions like this to be able to do it. Yep. And once you do, you'll learn. You'll get better.

You'll adapt. You'll innovate. And then, as long as you hang in there, you know, there's no reason that any company can't go national if that's their aspirations.

Steve: Yeah. So, I learned from a a mentor recently. It was Nick Peterson. He talks about, you know, making sure you always survive no matter what.

Wren: Mhmm.

Steve: Right? Good times, bad times, gotta make sure you survive no matter what. You have to make sure you don't get blown up. Yeah. Because you can just completely throw away what you worked all these years to, accomplish.

And we saw it even in the last few months. I mean, I personally know people that have lost 7 figures. Right? And since June, right, since the Fed rate hike. Actually, I was talking to a buddy, last week, and he said that he personally was on the phone with someone in our market who, for the month of August, logged a negative $800,000 a month.

That's a tough pill.

Wren: Tough pill to swallow, Steve.

Steve: Yeah. I mean, I know I could never survive an 800 k a month. I don't think I'd be married still if I had a negative 800 k a month.

Wren: Yeah. Yeah. Man, look. You know? I I think, one of the things that makes us all great is we're super resilient.

Right? Wholesalers, people in real estate, they're resilient. There was a a gentleman at at this past meeting. He says he's been bankrupt three times, and the dude is extremely well off today. Yeah.

And I thought about that. Right? And what what did they talk about, at the, the event? Paranoia.

Steve: Productive paranoia.

Wren: Productive paranoia. And I asked him, were you always productively paranoid? And he said, no. But I am today.

Steve: Yeah.

Wren: And I may have been bankrupt three times, but I'll never be bankrupt again.

Steve: Yeah. Though, I remember, not this event, but, event prior. I wanna say maybe one or two, CDs ago was Mike Watson talking about.

Wren: Yeah. What a vulnerable, great, amazing presentation.

Steve: Talking about how he got destroyed Mhmm. The last recession.

Wren: Yep.

Steve: He did everything right. He did everything by the book. And he bought with equity, and he still got destroyed because of, some litigious people that sued him out of existence.

Wren: Wow.

Steve: Alright. So it doesn't matter even if you do everything right.

Wren: And look at him today.

Steve: And look

Wren: at him. He is the most successful multifamily developer that I personally know on a first name basis. And he got crushed. Right?

Steve: I love them all. I mean, he got, like, you know I mean, he mentioned, right, he was suicidal for for the

Wren: So, you know, that resiliency. Right? The ability to just hang in there, the consistency through the ups and downs.

Steve: So I'm just saying all these things, Ryan, because you tell me why not go nationwide, and those are the kind of things that go through my mind. Mhmm. How much how many chips I wanna put out there? How many how much risk do I wanna take?

Wren: Yeah. And and nationwide, I think you gotta figure out, as a business owner, like, what makes sense for you?

Steve: Mhmm.

Wren: You know? Does what and and and, hey, I wanna go nationwide. It sounds cool, but what does that actually look like Yeah. On a day to day basis? Right?

Are you flying around all over the nation visiting offices away from your family with your daughter on Face Time saying, daddy, when are you coming home? I've been there. You know? And I enjoyed every second of it, but I I don't know that today that's what I wanna do anymore forever.

Steve: Right.

Wren: Right? There was a time when that's hey. That was the that was the life that I envisioned. Right? But I really envision being in in in raising my daughter.

Steve: Yep. So the follow-up question from Rye was, how did you how did you pick your markets?

Wren: So I'll I'll I'll answer that a different way. It's how would I pick my markets today. How about that? Because I think that, we made some mistakes there. How I would pick a market today is I wanna chase larger profit per deal.

I want the widget, which would be the wholesale fee, to be as big as possible. And you do that by chasing median house price. I think that on average, your wholesale fee is gonna trail about 10% of median house price. Right? So, you know, working doing some work in Atlanta now, and the average house price is about $330,000, and you'll see average wholesale fees of about $30.

Right? If you're, you know, in a in a in a market where the median house price is 150, you're gonna see 13 to $15,000 wholesale fee. So I think the better question is how would I today rather than how did I. And today, I would go and I would look for a good affordable median house price because I can account for my wholesale fee being about 10% of that. And the larger the wholesale fee, the better your margins, the more money you'll make.

Steve: Yep. And Elado has an interesting question. What is an acceptable gross profit margin for a wholesaling business?

Wren: That is a that is a very good question, and it's also a tough one. It's gonna be what is acceptable to you as the business owner. Right? You may draw a line in the sand and say, hey. I'm not gonna make any less than 40%.

Well, you're gonna sacrifice growth because you can only grow so fast at a 40% margin. But if you say, hey. I'm willing to build equity over cash in my company, then and I'm okay for the next three months making no money because I know that I'm gonna get an ROI off of that cash flow investment, then I think it comes down to the business owner and their goals. Right? Yeah.

I think there's a margin of safety. For example, if you're operating at 20% margins and you the market shifts 20% and all of a sudden you're doing 20% less in business, do your margins go to zero, and are you in a cash position to survive just like we were saying earlier? You know? So you have to think about those things. Like, what's your current cash position?

What are you willing to sacrifice? How much is your overhead? Right? It's a very important question. And, you know, what's your risk tolerance?

Steve: Yeah. And I think those are all absolutely key questions. So right now, you know, with everything you got going on, what what is your motivation? What is your why?

Wren: My my why is to you know, I haven't I haven't always made the best decisions in life, right, historically. And I just my why is to be the best person that I can be. Right? A man of integrity, a man that helps others as much as I possibly can so that, you know, when when I'm on my last bed, right, I have no regrets. I don't ever want I don't wanna regret sacrificing time with my family or being a husband.

I don't wanna sacrifice, being a bad father or bad husband for financial gain. Right? Because you can't take it with you. And so, but I have a big heart for giving. Right?

And so I wanna have a balanced work business life. I wanna continue to give and and help others and share the little bit that I have to share and try to help people. You know, like you, you have a a a goal to make a 100 millionaires. I haven't quantified mine that exact, but I just wanna give all I can give, you know, and and be happy doing it and and live a life by design. Do what I wanna do when I wanna do it with the people that I wanna do it with.

Steve: Of course. And I think, like, you know, when we were talking over lunch, right, BJ kinda shared

Wren: Yeah.

Steve: Like, you know, what the lessons he learned from his dad's,

Wren: That hit home.

Steve: I don't know, celebration of life, what you wanna call it. But you wanna, share with that real quick?

Wren: Yeah. There was a gentleman that that won the belt. He he got up and presented about, you know, how well their business was doing before this little correction and then everything that he had went to went through leading up to to this week. And then Friday, his father passed, and, they were wherever probably at at the family house remembering and talking about, his dad. And and he said his dad was a super successful, some type of medical professional, medical practitioner, some type of doctor, built a big firm, highly successful, helped tons and tons of people, made a ton of money, had a ton of properties.

And he said on his drive home, he realized not one time did anybody bring up anything related to business. Yeah. They talked about how good of a servant to the church, how his charity contributions, how great of a husband, a father, a brother, a friend, but not once did they say, man, he run one hell of a practice. That dude was a business tycoon. Not once was it brought up.

You know?

Steve: Yeah. And

Wren: So that that punched me in the gut a little bit, and it kinda helped bring into alignment, like, what is my why. Right? And and I believe I really believe it's the service of others.

Steve: There's, you know, talk about, like it's, like, the seven regrets and nine regrets. Mhmm. You know? Like, this lady went to all the hospices and, like, surveyed people. And no one ever says, I wish I worked more.

Wren: Yeah.

Steve: No one ever says, I wish I worked a few more hours. I spent more time away from my family. Right?

Wren: And it's tough, you know, when when you're building a business to remember that.

Steve: It is. It's very tough.

Wren: It it's it's super tough. And I think there's a season. You know, Medley Jason Medley, when I first come into Collective Genius, somehow we were we were talking, and, work life balance got brought up. And I said, I never see a time where I would ever work less than eighty hours a week. And you know how Jason's got that swag?

He was like, young buck, let me tell you. Right? The one day, it won't be that way. Mhmm. And, it's probably in the last year that I remember that conversation.

I remember thinking, you know what? I really I really don't wanna work eighty hours Yeah. Anymore. And so, you know, you go through those seasons in life, I think.

Steve: What is your biggest struggle right now?

Wren: You know, life is good. I I don't really have any struggles. I have a a lot of great friends, a lot of great mentors, a lot of great business partners in my life. If I had to come up with a struggle, I think it would probably be be slowing down and being being where my feet are. Right?

Especially when I'm with my family.

Steve: Mhmm.

Wren: It's it's many times, it's hard for me. My wife's asked me all the time, what are you thinking about? I'm like, what are you talking about? And she's like, that look on your face. Like, you're thinking about something, and I'd most of the time, don't even remember what I was thinking about.

But, obviously, I was deep in thought, and I think my biggest struggle is being being where my feet are when I'm with my family and turning off that business brain because it's constantly searching for efficiencies and improvements and ways to make things better. I'm not a brand new big idea guy, but I'm an innovative idea guy. Like, how can I innovate this idea to make what I'm currently doing better and more efficient and make more money and help more people? And so I I think it would just have to be turning that off. Yeah.

When it needs to be turned off is a struggle.

Steve: What are you doing about that?

Wren: Nothing currently. I need to do something.

Steve: Yeah. It's tough. I mean, we all struggle with it.

Wren: Yeah. Yeah.

Steve: Especially, you know, as we've, we've been not what's the word? We've injected additional ADHD into our bodies. Right? Like, we between the cell phones and everything else, like

Wren: Mhmm.

Steve: When my kids will complain so much, like, that I'm bored. And then my answer to them always is good. Like, you need the skill. You you need this ability to sit there and do nothing because if not, you're gonna be addicted.

Wren: Yeah. It's it's very true. So but now you bring up a good point. What am I doing about it? I need to do something about it.

Steve: Yeah. Just just doing some things we learned this week. Right? Like, what should be what are you worried about, and what are you doing about it? Mhmm.

How do you stay motivated? Which might be a silly question for you, but what how do you stay motivated?

Wren: I'm pretty good at, I think the most important conversation you have is the one you have with yourself. Mhmm. Right? And I'm pretty good at self talk. You know?

There's a great diagram, right, that, it shows motivation, and it shows peaks and valleys. Motivation peaks, and then it goes down, and it peaks, and it goes down. But then it has this straight line going all the way up, and that line's discipline. Right? And so I don't know that I stay extremely motivated, but I stay extremely disciplined.

Yeah. I'm very regimented, you know, especially when I'm not traveling on the road. I do the same thing at the same time every day for the most part. And it's those disciplines that make sure that I get I'm intentional about getting done the work that I need to get done. Right?

I have a lot of coaching students, and I tell them it's IPE. Itemize, prioritize, execute. Itemize, prioritize, execute. And if you could be disciplined in the execution of your prioritization, you're gonna you're gonna accomplish your goals.

Steve: Are you a little competitive?

Wren: What do you what am I? You blocked my shot. What'd I say? Steve took me, threw me into the wall the other day. I was pretty upset.

I wasn't happy about it, was it?

Steve: You were not, and you came back harder on defense. But, you know, I'm asking this question because, you know, like, we're all pretty competitive. Mhmm. And one of the challenges we have being competitive is, like, he did what? Yeah.

Right? Now we have to beat those numbers. So, like, do you find yourself fighting against that?

Wren: Use I used to be really big onto that. Right? But my my competition is with myself these days, I think. You know? I'm I'm in a race to be better than I was yesterday.

I'm really big into that, and, I'm competitive with myself. And and I'll tell you, man, you look you look at people doing big numbers, and, a lot of times, it's not what it appears to be. And you look at people that have built big empires and that you think you admire. Right? Mhmm.

Just like titans of industry, you can go and study them, and they're completely miserable. Yeah. Right? There's a story about a fisherman and a guy on a beach, And the guy goes up to the fisherman and says, hey. You're just fishing with one pole.

Right? Or they no. That's not the story. The guy's laying on the beach, and he's just kinda fishing with one rod. He says, you should what are you doing?

He's like, I'm fishing. I was like, well, you should buy more poles and get a boat. And the guy's like, why? He's like, so you can catch more fish. And he's like, why?

And he's like, so you can buy a whole fleet of boats. And the guy's like, why? And he's like, so you can make a bunch of money and retire and lay on the beach. And the guy looks around, and he's like, but I am laying on the beach. Right.

Right? And so I I think that you you gotta just understand what you want out of life, and and and comparison is the thief of joy. Right? That you've heard that before and

Steve: Mhmm.

Wren: And just, I like I said, I used to I used to wanna, you know, outdo everybody else, but I just wanna outdo the man that I was yesterday.

Steve: Yeah. Takes a lot of growth to get to that point. Yeah. So this might be a trick question for you. How do you measure success?

Wren: Daily optimized experience.

Steve: Alright. Larry would be proud. I was gonna send him this clip if you screwed up this this question.

Wren: Sustainable over time.

Steve: Yeah. So in case you guys don't know what we're talking about, may it might sound like an inside joke. Brandon and I both have the same leadership coach, and he would probably I mean, he's a Navy SEAL, and he'll probably he'll probably end this at night.

Wren: Yeah. We

Steve: got that one wrong. Mhmm. What is your superpower?

Wren: That's that's a great question. And and I got your, your form, and I was supposed to respond to this. I don't know if I did. Did I?

Steve: I don't recall.

Wren: I don't think I did. I I think it's, I think I have a few things that I'm really good at, but if I had to say one thing, I I think it's self awareness. You know? I'm I'm pretty good at knowing what I'm gonna ask and then going back and fixing it. You know?

We all make mistakes in life, and we all fall short, but it it's understanding and admitting it, man. I'm wrong. Mhmm. And then let me go work to be better than I was yesterday. Yeah.

So I think it's self awareness and just, I would like to say humility, but I know that's not always true. But

Steve: Maybe not always be true, but, I mean, I can tell that you care Yeah. And you wanna be better.

Wren: Yeah. For sure.

Steve: Right? And I think that's a big part of humility. Mhmm. Because once you don't think you can get better, that's when you're gonna

Wren: Oh, boy. You're in trouble then. Yeah.

Steve: What's the greatest lesson you have learned?

Wren: I think that, the the greatest lesson is is you're gonna have setbacks in life. Right? Everybody will. And it's it's the man that you become through that adversity. Does it do you become better?

Do you remain the same, or do you become jaded and carry a victim mentality? Mhmm. Right? Everything in life happens for a reason, and it's, where we end up is how we adjust and overcome to the seasons in life that do happen. Yeah.

Right? And so, I think knowing that, it's just, you know, and it's not about the end. Right? Talking about the stuff with BJ and his dad, it it's the journey and who we who we become there and staying self aware in that and realizing that. You know?

Like I said, just trying to get better every day.

Steve: That that part about, you know, the are you taking the lessons, and are you becoming jaded or this or that? Because I can say there are a lot of elements in myself where I become jaded right there in fifteen years. Like, there are certain things like, should I respond this way? Should I react this way? But I do.

Yeah. What is your favorite, best, or most interesting failure?

Wren: Favorite, best, or most interesting Failure. That's a great maybe asking some deep questions here. Probably, you know, it would it would have to be around my daughter or my my my wife. It's really easy to show up a certain way at work. Right?

And it becomes increasingly difficult over time to continue to show up the way you wanna show up at home. And I think that, through building this this business that I had spent the last four years of my life building, I I really started to realize that I wasn't showing up the way I should at home. Mhmm. You know? You work all day.

You grind all day. You get home, and you're just exhausted. Leave me alone. Right? And so I wouldn't say, favorite or interesting.

I I would say most impactful is me realizing that, hey. I'm not showing up the way that I need to show up at home Mhmm. And being self aware like we spoke about and trying to and I still struggle with it. Right? There's many times that, you know, my daughter will run up to me and wanna play and wanna do play a board game or something, or my wife will wanna go on a date.

And I'm just like, man. You know? It's it's, and so I I think that I I I try to get better every day with that. So I don't know. That answers your question?

Steve: Absolutely does. And it it's huge because we know going to the office, we gotta be prepared for the office.

Wren: That's the easy part. Going to the office is coming home and showing off.

Steve: So instead of looking at it like I'm leaving work Yeah. Think about it maybe where, like, I'm coming home. Mhmm. And if you're prepared

Wren: Yeah. I'm coming home. Yep. It's the after party.

Steve: Yeah. It's a completely different thought. That's that's also really deep as well. Final question for me. There is one more question from the audience, but, final question for me is what book have you gifted more than any other?

Wren: The Manly Art of Raising a Daughter. Every guy that I, here has a daughter, I give it to I send it to him.

Steve: I don't have that book.

Wren: Wow. I'll send it to you as well.

Steve: I'm just just I'm just putting that out there.

Wren: You haven't had a daughter in the past three years that we've become friends either.

Steve: Putting out it So into the universe.

Wren: Send it

Steve: to you.

Wren: I will. It's it's a it it really impacted me. Yeah. You know, I I had Emmy. She come to live with me when she was about one year old.

I was single. I didn't have a clue what I was doing, and I was scared. You know? And and like anything, when I feel uneducated, I begin to read, and that book really was impactful for me. So I I've given it a lot.

I've given that, and I've given, the law of success a lot. And, oh, another one that I give all the time is how to win friends and influence people.

Steve: Have you read, Strong Father, Strong Daughters? Mm-mm. That's one I liked a lot. Really? Yeah.

I was talking to Ryan Wymer, a couple days ago. Alright.

Wren: He just

Steve: had a daughter. And he's like, what what what what do you recommend? I was like, start with that.

Wren: Yeah. Yeah. Okay. What was the name of it?

Steve: Strong father, strong daughters.

Wren: Okay.

Steve: Talks about the importance. Right? Because you heard, like, you know, there's that old cliche of, like, daddy issues and this and that. Right?

Wren: Oh, yeah.

Steve: Don't be the dad that causes the issues and he kinda talks about

Wren: No joke.

Steve: The do's and don'ts. Question from the audience here. So they're asking, greater David, are we at Real now? Yes. I am at Real.

So if you guys are interested, you guys are licensed, join us Real. Happy to have you join us, David. So I want you to think about the last thoughts I wanna leave all the listeners with while I make a few quick announcements. Guys, if you got value today, please like, subscribe, share, comment. You know?

I'm being completely transparent here. We want to manipulate the algorithms. So if the more you guys interact, the more people we reach, the more millionaires we can create. And then we do have part of the disruption. We had that earlier today, so check that out every week.

And we got, certainty talks every Friday except for tomorrow because I'm gonna be in Denver with Paul Sparks for our live event. And then we do have coming up next Wednesday, John Burley, a very fascinating life story. I got to, talk to him, and he was on the circuit back in the day with Jim Rohn and Zig Ziglar. Can you imagine?

Wren: No. I cannot.

Steve: Like, what could your life would be if you got to just spend all your time with those guys?

Wren: Yeah. That'd be cool.

Steve: What are some last thoughts you'd like to leave all the listeners with?

Wren: Yeah. Fine. Well, you know, I'm thankful to be on the podcast today. Thankful to be able to share my story. I I've not really shared it much.

Yeah. You know, I've had my head down grounding for the past, close to five years. So excited to be able to do that. But, you know, if I could give the listeners, the viewers anything, it's just like like I said, man, try to be self aware, stay humble, be 1% better than you were yesterday.

Steve: Yep. Absolutely. And if someone wants to get a hold of you?

Wren: At Rem Bartlett.

Steve: At Rem Bartlett. Really? That simple?

Wren: That simple.

Steve: Man, I was trying to guess. Steve Tran, that didn't work. So awesome. Thank you so much.

Wren: Oh, yep.

Steve: And I'm looking forward to our partnership. If you guys haven't checked it out, be sure go check it out. Disruptors.com/salesmanagementtraining or I don't know. It'll pop that up on the website or on the on the screen. So, thank you guys, and we'll see you guys next

Wren: week. See you.